[Camaro1973]

Originally Posted by LiqTenExp

Negative, you cannot do VVE without wideband. If you tuner stops at the MAF table on the dyno, walk away and find someone else. This also prevents you from comparing VVE (dynamic airflow) vs MAF airflow values to be able to use dynamic airflow properly as the car was designed for.

It is also the check against NB02 when dealing with setting up NBO2 settings like Rich/Lean vs. Airflow settings.

LOL negative what? What does that have to do with street tuning? Nothing. Did you not read what i wrote?

[LiqTenExp]

Yes, here is what you said:

"Wideband isn't needed for street tuning bud, its already dialed in on the dyno. Street tuning is mainly TCM, timing adjustments etc. If the dyno isnt a load dyno the street tune may yield different results as far as detonation or knock. Also, many people run widebands with gauges as well."

VVE and all part throttle tuning is best done on the street. You need WB02 for VVE and a half a dozen other calibration level tuning that is performed off dyno.

There may be the rare tuner that will attempt to go through the VVE table through varying load over rpm to get through all the zones. Half these guys are using Dynojets out there, it ain't happening with their standard static load units. Once it hits the street it will need to be touched up. Plus it is best to do it over the dynamic of temperature ranges you drive the car in, I don't feel the built in temp compensation is all it is sold to be. To me VVE is a living breathing thing that eventually you will setting on "good enough". I don't see that happening in a single trip dyno session. I am picky and therefore some people may be willing to live with poor street manners, I will not.

I actually prefer dyno for final max timing since the car will usually be hotter and you can wind out 4th gear much more safely than on the street. I'm not a fan of multiple 153 mph (M6 car) runs to safely finalize high octane timing tables.

I prefer knock on the street, agree with you there. I have gotten different results on street vs. dyno, street tends to show up more for whatever reason.

[Joshinator99]

Originally Posted by radz28

That isn't what some people say. I'm not saying I can prove it without a shadow of doubt, but my WB readings are within a handful of the fuel trim readings. I see my cylinder air masses line-up and my MAF/VE/Dynamic all line-up nearly perfectly (until the VE taps-out at 512g/s). Maybe it doesn't work for all combinations, but it seems to work in at least some. That's all I'm saying.

You realize the car does not trim fuel when under PE, right? The narrowband O2’s trim the fueling at idle and part throttle only since that’s when your target AFR is stoichiometric. So that’s why you need a WB to tune WOT, since the narrow bands are useless there.

[Camaro1973]

Originally Posted by LiqTenExp

Yes, here is what you said:

"Wideband isn't needed for street tuning bud, its already dialed in on the dyno. Street tuning is mainly TCM, timing adjustments etc. If the dyno isnt a load dyno the street tune may yield different results as far as detonation or knock. Also, many people run widebands with gauges as well."

VVE and all part throttle tuning is best done on the street. You need WB02 for VVE and a half a dozen other calibration level tuning that is performed off dyno.

There may be the rare tuner that will attempt to go through the VVE table through varying load over rpm to get through all the zones. Half these guys are using Dynojets out there, it ain't happening with their standard static load units. Once it hits the street it will need to be touched up. Plus it is best to do it over the dynamic of temperature ranges you drive the car in, I don't feel the built in temp compensation is all it is sold to be. To me VVE is a living breathing thing that eventually you will setting on "good enough". I don't see that happening in a single trip dyno session. I am picky and therefore some people may be willing to live with poor street manners, I will not.

I actually prefer dyno for final max timing since the car will usually be hotter and you can wind out 4th gear much more safely than on the street. I'm not a fan of multiple 153 mph (M6 car) runs to safely finalize high octane timing tables.

I prefer knock on the street, agree with you there. I have gotten different results on street vs. dyno, street tends to show up more for whatever reason.

I have been to at least a half of dozen tuners since ive had my car. Not 1 plugs in a widenband for street tuning.. UNLESS, running meth.

[Joshinator99]

You do NOT need a WB to tune VVE, FYI. It’s only active below ~4000 RPM so the narrowband fuel trims can be used (along with correlating airflow readings vs the MAF). You can use a WB like Greg Banish suggests, but definitely not mandatory.

[LiqTenExp]

Originally Posted by Camaro1973

I have been to at least a half of dozen tuners since ive had my car. Not 1 plugs in a widenband for street tuning.. UNLESS, running meth.

That is insane, scary even.

This year I added 50/50 meth, used WB02 adjustments on street for it, done. No dyno required. Probably took 4 logs to dial it in perfect.

You have to have WB02 for VVE. I'd look at your log and see when Dynamic Airflow is enabled. If it is a really low RPM they basically don't have VVE tuned and its just going to high speed (MAF), stock is 4k rpm.

[LiqTenExp]

Originally Posted by Joshinator99

You do NOT need a WB to tune VVE, FYI. It’s only active below ~4000 RPM so the narrowband fuel trims can be used (along with correlating airflow readings vs the MAF). You can use a WB like Greg Banish suggests, but definitely not mandatory.

I disagree, the NB02 are not responsive or accurate enough over the AFR/lambda ranges you'd see doing your first cut on VVE after major mods. You have no idea where you are until you get close to stoich and therefore would waste a lot more time. Doing my VVE with major mods saw stuff over 16:1 and under 11:1 in areas. NB drop dead in those regions.

NBO2 aren't going to help give you the proper percent error to update VVE as you walk away from stoich. You would have to spend a lot more time dicking around vs. getting to the proper percent error value quicker. Yes you can do it, but what a waste of time.

Additionally you have nothing "checking" that your NB02 values are correct, WB02 always offers second opinion and can tell you if one of them is going south or some quick fueling changes are occurring due to bad spots in a table that NB02 just wouldn't pick up on.

[Joshinator99]

Originally Posted by LiqTenExp

You have to have WB02 for VVE. I'd look at your log and see when Dynamic Airflow is enabled. If it is a really low RPM they basically don't have VVE tuned and its just going to high speed (MAF), stock is 4k rpm.

No, you don’t. At 4K and under, and not in PE (so not WOT), is when Dynamic Airflow is active. Those are all times when the car is looking for stoichiometric AFR...thus the ability to use the narrowbands...

FWIW, logging VE airflow vs MAF works mint and is more effective than either WB or narrowband VVE tuning, IMO.

[LiqTenExp]

Originally Posted by Joshinator99

No, you don’t. At 4K and under, and not in PE (so not WOT), is when Dynamic Airflow is active. Those are all times when the car is looking for stoichiometric AFR...thus the ability to use the narrowbands...

FWIW, logging VE airflow vs MAF works mint and is more effective than either WB or narrowband VVE tuning, IMO.

I don't do VVE in Dynamic and shut that off along with DFCO and MAF. Obviously under 4k you are in normal airflow (SD) but I do VVE over 4k and shut off dynamic for that reason. If my MAF fails VVE backs me up and I'm safe no matter the rpm.

In reference to VE airflow vs MAF airflow for tuning, I don't trust MAF enough at lower rpms to do that across the board.

I only compare dynamic airflow vs MAF airflow values to make sure my VVE is right and dynamic is working well. I'll plot the two against each other and make sure they track well with each other. If they don't figure out which ones messed up. Using WB02 I can compare both and address the issue. I always have an exact percent off no matter how wonky the AFR value goes to.

[hawk02]

Originally Posted by LiqTenExp

Negative, you cannot do VVE without wideband. If you tuner stops at the MAF table on the dyno, walk away and find someone else. This also prevents you from comparing VVE (dynamic airflow) vs MAF airflow values to be able to use dynamic airflow properly as the car was designed for.

It is also the check against NB02 when dealing with setting up NBO2 settings like Rich/Lean vs. Airflow settings.

Unfortunately, you know as well as I do that a lot of tuners dial out the SD area of the tune and make it MAF only. Again, time is money. Do a half-dozen pulls on the dyno to calibrate WOT and send the customer on their way. It's too time-consuming to drive what could be hours on the street calibrating the VVE tables.

[Joshinator99]

Originally Posted by LiqTenExp

I don't do VVE in Dynamic and shut that off along with DFCO and MAF. Obviously under 4k you are in normal airflow (SD) but I do VVE over 4k and shut off dynamic for that reason.

In reference to VE airflow vs MAF airflow for tuning, I don't trust MAF enough at lower rpms to do that across the board.

I only compare dynamic airflow vs MAF airflow values to make sure my VVE is right and dynamic is working well. I'll plot the two against each other and make sure they track well with each other. If they don't figure out which ones messed up. Using WB02 I can compare both and address the issue. I always have an exact percent off no matter how wonky the AFR value goes to.

Why are you doing VVE tuning over 4K? At that point you’re under PE anyway. Always considered it a waste of time but interested in why you do it.

[LiqTenExp]

Originally Posted by hawk02

Unfortunately, you know as well as I do that a lot of tuners dial out the VVE area of the tune and make it MAF only. Again, time is money. Do a half-dozen pulls on the dyno to calibrate WOT and send the customer on their way. It's too time-consuming to drive what could be hours on the street calibrating the VVE.

Exactly. You probably need 6-10 20-30 min logs to get VVE on a heavily modded car decent in VVE. If the car is a jerk and you have to rezone, double that time. No shop can afford that for the typical price you see listed for a "dyno" tune.

[LiqTenExp]

Originally Posted by Joshinator99

Why are you doing VVE tuning over 4K? At that point you’re under PE anyway. Always considered it a waste of time but interested in why you do it.

No you are not guaranteed to be in PE. If you are below the PE enable torque you are not in PE. IF you are below the enable pedal you are not in PE.

If you are setting yourself up for a moving hit and have your rpm somewhere lovely like 4500 rpm or so and just holding rpm/mph till its go time, you are necessarily in PE. Get up to speed and park your rpm at 4500 rpm, do you see your PE enrichment expected AFR/lambda showing on your WB02, I bet not.

[Joshinator99]

Originally Posted by LiqTenExp

No you are not guaranteed to be in PE. If you are below the PE enable torque you are not in PE. IF you are below the enable pedal you are not in PE.

If you are setting yourself up for a moving hit and have your rpm somewhere lovely like 4500 rpm or so and just holding it till its go time, you are not likely in PE.

The instant you hit the gas your enable pedal will trigger and you’ll go right into PE. And at 4500 RPM your MAF is certainly accurate so you’re covered there. So, I guess I’m just not seeing it. But appreciate the back and forth discussion.