[Eyefixstuff]

Originally Posted by ProCharger

On our dyno this is what I see....

Camaro = right at 400 wheel stock.... 7.5 psi boosted between 550-580 wheel
Mustang = right at 370 wheel stock.... 10 psi boosted between 630-660 wheel

Assuming we are talking stock STG2 systems on both.
And yes, fuel limited for the Camaro, hence the low boost number.

This is what I needed to see. Thank you.

[jessrayo]

The difference is the direct injection fuel. The new Camaro has it and the Mustang does not. It makes the engine much more fuel efficient for normal driving.

Peak engine power is achieved by putting as much air and fuel in a cylinder as possible in the proper ratio. With port injection fuel was never the problem, if you could give it more air you could spray as much fuel as you wanted in the port and it would go. If you buy a gen5 Camaro without direct injection you see the same thing as the Mustang, you can make 1000 hp if you put on a big enough forced induction system to feed it air. This simply is not the case with direct injection. The cycle time of the injector inside the cylinder is a fraction of the port injection pulse and the fuel pressures are 100x greater. The reason the power numbers are lower on the base forced induction kits is because up to this point you have got to get pretty deep into the high pressure fuel system at significant cost to significantly increase fuel delivery to attain those big power levels. GM designed the entire LT1 engine to work in a range of up to around 600 hp and it is fabulous if you stay within that range. By if you want to make more than this you have got to come up with an alternative way to get fuel in the engine.

To put it simply, the fuel system on the Camaro is much more advanced than that on the Mustang and it is so advanced that the aftermarket has not been able to easily improve what GM engineers have installed in the car. What we are seeing as far as power limitations are the results achieved with GM fuel system parts. If you want to upgrade the GM direct injection fuel system in a stock Camaro the only reasonably priced option is the GM system from the LT4 ZL1. Lingenfelter has coordinated with one other supplier to make a system with a little more potential but the cost is $6000 and the gains are pretty minimal.

I wouldn't stress too much about an engine with a simpler fuel injection design making more power by adding on a forced induction system. Like I said they can't touch what you can get out of the old gen5 Camaro if you just want numbers.

[DenverTaco07]

Originally Posted by ProCharger

On our dyno this is what I see....

Camaro = right at 400 wheel stock.... 7.5 psi boosted between 550-580 wheel
Mustang = right at 370 wheel stock.... 10 psi boosted between 630-660 wheel

Assuming we are talking stock STG2 systems on both.
And yes, fuel limited for the Camaro, hence the low boost number.

Love to see the dyno charts on these please.

thanks.

(my guess is torque curve looks more similar to HP curve on the stang (vs. the flat curve on the LT1) based on what i'm seeing online, but maybe you have something better to look at)

[Eyefixstuff]

Originally Posted by jessrayo

The difference is the direct injection fuel. The new Camaro has it and the Mustang does not. It makes the engine much more fuel efficient for normal driving.

Peak engine power is achieved by putting as much air and fuel in a cylinder as possible in the proper ratio. With port injection fuel was never the problem, if you could give it more air you could spray as much fuel as you wanted in the port and it would go. If you buy a gen5 Camaro without direct injection you see the same thing as the Mustang, you can make 1000 hp if you put on a big enough forced induction system to feed it air. This simply is not the case with direct injection. The cycle time of the injector inside the cylinder is a fraction of the port injection pulse and the fuel pressures are 100x greater. The reason the power numbers are lower on the base forced induction kits is because up to this point you have got to get pretty deep into the high pressure fuel system at significant cost to significantly increase fuel delivery to attain those big power levels. GM designed the entire LT1 engine to work in a range of up to around 600 hp and it is fabulous if you stay within that range. By if you want to make more than this you have got to come up with an alternative way to get fuel in the engine.

To put it simply, the fuel system on the Camaro is much more advanced than that on the Mustang and it is so advanced that the aftermarket has not been able to easily improve what GM engineers have installed in the car. What we are seeing as far as power limitations are the results achieved with GM fuel system parts. If you want to upgrade the GM direct injection fuel system in a stock Camaro the only reasonably priced option is the GM system from the LT4 ZL1. Lingenfelter has coordinated with one other supplier to make a system with a little more potential but the cost is $6000 and the gains are pretty minimal.

I wouldn't stress too much about an engine with a simpler fuel injection design making more power by adding on a forced induction system. Like I said they can't touch what you can get out of the old gen5 Camaro if you just want numbers.

Great explanation, thank you.

[ProCharger]

Originally Posted by jessrayo

To put it simply, the fuel system on the Camaro is much more advanced than that on the Mustang and it is so advanced that the aftermarket has not been able to easily improve what GM engineers have installed in the car.

Since Direct injection actually isn't ideal for WOT operation and was really designed for emissions, gas mileage.....at the sacrifice of valve deposits, particulates, etc.

Ford already beat GM to the punch again with the new 2018/2019 Mustang ECU and fueling....

Word on the street is....Direct injection for start up/low hp cruising/transitions AND port fueling for heavy load and WOT.

Given the challenges faced when eliminating port injection, and long term issues it causes. I figured we would see a dual fuel system soon, I am just stoked to see its already coming. Thats good news for us hot rodders.

[ProCharger]

Originally Posted by DenverTaco07

Love to see the dyno charts on these please.

thanks.

(my guess is torque curve looks more similar to HP curve on the stang (vs. the flat curve on the LT1) based on what i'm seeing online, but maybe you have something better to look at)

Mustangs have very very flat TQ curves....

Since they have 4 cam VCT that sweeps the cams up to 60 degrees.

(the LT1 and LT4 only have 1 conventional cam, and 12 degrees of movement a WOT)



NOTE: I just looked at a graph... of one of my tunes for a coyote. And here is the breakdown.
I spent a LOT of time making my cam schedule for best tq, and smoothness.

2,800 rpm = 400 ft lbs
4,000 rpm = 450 ft lbs
4,500 rpm = 500 ft lbs
5,000 rpm = 500 ft lbs
5,500 rpm = 500 ft lbs
6,000 rpm = 475 ft lbs
6,500 rpm = 475 ft lbs
7,000 rpm = 450 ft lbs
7,300 rpm = 400 ft lbs

[jessrayo]

Originally Posted by ProCharger

Since Direct injection actually isn't ideal for WOT operation and was really designed for emissions, gas mileage.....at the sacrifice of valve deposits, particulates, etc.

Ford already beat GM to the punch again with the new 2018/2019 Mustang ECU and fueling....

Word on the street is....Direct injection for start up/low hp cruising/transitions AND port fueling for heavy load and WOT.

Given the challenges faced when eliminating port injection, and long term issues it causes. I figured we would see a dual fuel system soon, I am just stoked to see its already coming. Thats good news for us hot rodders.

I have read the news leaks that the next Mustang will have both port and direct injectors. I have heard that the new Raptor V6 already has this configuration. Cudos to Ford for going this route in the future. I must admit that if the stock computer is already configured to handle the dual injectors, it makes it much, much easier for the aftermarket to make huge power numbers. I wish GM would jump on board with this soon. Most of the GM guys making 1000+ are already using some sort of dual injection system. I suspect that the new LT5 may be tinkering with this but GM has been very tight with information on this new engine.

I have considered doing dual injectors from the start with my '16 Camaro as we hit every fuel limitation one at a time building power numbers. The limit with a direct injection motor is always fuel. Now that I damaged a piston and I'm building a forged bottom I'm looking at this dual injector concept again. I would rather have one engine management computer but I've seen others have good results with a piggy back system. I will keep everybody posted on what I figure out as we find the limits on my new system.

[DenverTaco07]

Originally Posted by ProCharger

Mustangs have very very flat TQ curves....

Since they have 4 cam VCT that sweeps the cams up to 60 degrees.

(the LT1 and LT4 only have 1 conventional cam, and 12 degrees of movement a WOT)



NOTE: I just looked at a graph... of one of my tunes for a coyote. And here is the breakdown.
I spent a LOT of time making my cam schedule for best tq, and smoothness.

2,800 rpm = 400 ft lbs
4,000 rpm = 450 ft lbs
4,500 rpm = 500 ft lbs
5,000 rpm = 500 ft lbs
5,500 rpm = 500 ft lbs
6,000 rpm = 475 ft lbs
6,500 rpm = 475 ft lbs
7,000 rpm = 450 ft lbs
7,300 rpm = 400 ft lbs

the charts i've found online don't look that good...i'm very happy with my LT1 though.

[Hyperlinkblue]

Now match the kit up with all lt4 fuel parts, lpfp, hpfp and injectors and put 10 psi to it and see what hapoens. Id love to get a procharger, i got full bolt ons and a msd IM and a ported TB. But the whole fuel thing has me lost as well, ive also heard thats why people are having rod and piston issues at 700 rwhp is because of fuel. When they run out, it goes lean, detonates and thats it. Cleatus mcfarland is at 8 or 900 rwhp is his lt1 vette but has it has meth injection....... this points me to believe its fueling issues that cause em to pop. If you upgrade your rods and pistons it just makes it more resiliant to the detonation but does not fix the original problem, fuel. Im not a expert or a tuner, but this is just stuff imgathering and puting toghether as i go. Ive also heard at around 700hp the cam phaser starts going all willy whompus and causes havic. And then you should use a cam lockout kit to delete the VVT. Another interesting thing ive followed is sloppy mechanis on his 5.3 turbo build. 100k junkyard 5.3, he filled down the ring gap and put the stock rings back in. Hes at high 900 rwhp and at one point he used bosch LPG fuel injectors because he couldent get ahold of anythinng else, diff motor and no DI but still, insane hes at that power with just boost and fuel and tuning and alot of trial and error.

[ProCharger]

Originally Posted by DenverTaco07

the charts i've found online don't look that good...i'm very happy with my LT1 though.

Some people don't spend the kinda time I do on dialing in the VCT cams on the coyotes. I have about 1 months worth of dyno time on our calibration. Literally making changes 1 degree at a time with the cams (both intake and exhaust)

The numbers I just pulled to share with you was on a car that ONLY made 600 rwhp... since it was on 91 pump. On 93 pump I can get at least 640-660 rwhp out of them, and an easy 25-40 more foot lbs.



you should be happy with your LT1... nothing wrong with it.

But compairing the motors is very apples to oranges.

[JANNETTYRACING]

Originally Posted by Eyefixstuff

So I've been a Chevrolet guy for life. I've had F bodies since my very first car. So imagine my disgust and sadness when I'm looking on the procharger site and see that their kit for the mustang is advertised for 300hp?! How is it possible that the motor, stock, with the kit puts down 700rwhp and the gen6 6.2 is what, 550 on a good day? Until seeing this I was under the impression that the LT1 was superior in every way. Someone help!

I feel like I just lost a loved one.

Torque X RPM / 5252 = Horsepower

Coyote motors spin 7500 rpm ours spin 6200 rpm

We still make more torque.