[David@Vengeance]

We have several camshaft variations available for the LT1 that we've been using with proven performance results since the 2014 C7 first dropped. Our "Cam kit plus" offers everything that you need for what we feel is a complete and reliable camshaft install on these cars. Since the M6 Camaros do in fact have the AFM lifters in place, we do require you to delete this system for any of our custom camshafts. Our kit includes:

• Your choice of a Vengeance Racing custom grind camshaft w/ 32% fuel lobe
• Vengeance Racing .660" dual valve spring kit w/ Ti retainers
• Vengeance Racing 3/8" hardened pushrods
• C5R timing chain
• Fuel pump lash cap
• CompCams phaser limiter kit
• CompCams trunion upgrade kit
• GM VVT cam bolt
• GM crankshaft bolt
• CompCams 850 lifter set
• GM lifter trays
• GM MLS head gasket set
• GM LT exhaust gaskets
• DOD delete plug kit
• Your choice of ARP cylinder head bolts or studs

Check out the link below for this kit, and feel free to call/PM/e-mail me at any time if you have questions on what combination would work best for you!

http://vengeanceracing.net/vengeance...en-v-1368.html

[BradfordCamaro]

Soon there will be a straight swap done and I will let you guys know how it turns out....

[DFW1LE]

Originally Posted by David@Vengeance

We have several camshaft variations available for the LT1 that we've been using with proven performance results since the 2014 C7 first dropped. Our "Cam kit plus" offers everything that you need for what we feel is a complete and reliable camshaft install on these cars. Since the M6 Camaros do in fact have the AFM lifters in place, we do require you to delete this system for any of our custom camshafts. Our kit includes:

• Your choice of a Vengeance Racing custom grind camshaft w/ 32% fuel lobe
• Vengeance Racing .660" dual valve spring kit w/ Ti retainers
• Vengeance Racing 3/8" hardened pushrods
• C5R timing chain
• Fuel pump lash cap
• CompCams phaser limiter kit
• CompCams trunion upgrade kit
• GM VVT cam bolt
• GM crankshaft bolt
• CompCams 850 lifter set
• GM lifter trays
• GM MLS head gasket set
• GM LT exhaust gaskets
• DOD delete plug kit
• Your choice of ARP cylinder head bolts or studs

Check out the link below for this kit, and feel free to call/PM/e-mail me at any time if you have questions on what combination would work best for you!

http://vengeanceracing.net/vengeance...en-v-1368.html

Are your stage 1-3 cam specs proprietary or can you share those details for those that want to see that level of detail?

Thanks!

[drivingagain]

Originally Posted by PRAY

I will be testing my heads with the stock cam configuration starting Sunday or Monday depending on my work load this weekend. I have some custom cam ideas I am running by some smart guys so we will see what I can come up with. I am planning on offering three cams for stock heads and three cams for ported heads some time soon. I have one right now that I know works for stock heads very well. It has shown big gains across the rpm band. I will be helping finish up the dyno tuning and track testing of it shortly.

I am also going to try to keep the grinds AFM compatible if the customer so wishes. I think for that they just add two degrees to the AFM lobes. NBD. I happen to enjoy AFM and see it's value for the A8 guys. Even with the converter and on E I am seeing high 19mph average in my car. I have to mess with the tuning some more to get it to stay in AFM a bit longer than it is now since I have a ton more tq than stock. The window to stay in AFM is only 5KPA or so from what I have seen in the tune with the very limited time I have spent looking at it. The only issue I foresee is getting the correct spring pressure to handle the cam and not mess up the AFM lifters. From what this motor will spin to right now it seems GM has come a long way on their AFM lifters over the previous GEN V offerings.

My focus is going to be on maximizing tq over the entire curve while maintaining a 6,500 redline at most. I think with VVT there isn't any reason we should be losing any tq. I will be happy with 30-40rw gains up top and the same boost in tq across the rpm band. There are plenty of guys manufacturing cams that will spin to 7K right now and I am not interested in the all out market right now. I feel that this will best suit the M6 guys and guys with stock converters. I will keep the duration on the low side and I really want to shorten up the lobe sep and advance the cam a bit to maximize DCR. The cams will also drive much better and sound really good. Border line "nasty" if I get it right.

PTV is my main concern right now for the intake valve in the fully advanced position and how much retard I can get away with at high rpm for the exhaust. I am going to measure all of that this weekend when I do my cam swap.

My buddy had his motor out doing his cam swap and said that there was .200" of PTV on the intake for the stock cam. I am going to verify this and do my math from there to see how early I can open the intake valve and maintain .100" PTV. This will also let me know if I can have Cometic make me some .040" gaskets for the guys on full time E. I will then either mill the heads or run a shorter gasket to bump SCR and DCR to take advantage of E. This process will be a major bump in power for even the stock cam guys.

Thanks for the hard work Pray! Really interested in the results you show. You are the closets vender in my area and focusing on best usable power for the gen 6. I hope to do business with you in the near future as well.

[PRAY]

Originally Posted by Nicul15

Pray thanks for doing all the homework on maximizing vvt with a bigger cam. I wanted to see the biggest cam while still using the full vvt range and compare that to the specs of one using the limiter and evaluate the trade offs. A few options out there but not too much info on where the cam is in the spectrum of vvt. you're already on it so thanks.

I've asked this already a few times but figure I'll check in again, any luck in enabling afm on the m6 cars?

If you move to shorter head gaskets will you impact ptv?

For guys on E are you looking to bump CR or is there benefit from tighter quench?
I would imagine any aftermarket cam would be able to swallow up the SCR of the gasket bump because of the drop in DCR. Without running the calculator it's a big assumption on my end.

All good points and questions.

I will be using the phaser limiter. The most the stock cam is retarded at any point is 28* and that is basically in AFM mode at very light throttle in A8 cars. It is actually in all of the cam phasing tables. I ditch all of that anyway. It make the car much more responsive on the highway and the transition from AFM to 8cyl is almost un-noticeable once you zero the light throttle low rpm phasing out. During WOT the most the cam is retarded is 10* and that is only above 6,800. I can tell you from experience that GM nailed the cam timing in this motor stock. So using a phaser limiter that limits you to 24* is NBD.

I have not messed with the M6 car AFM. I have nothing to say on that matter.

Milling or a shorter head gasket will always move your valves closer to the pistons. However, depending on your valve job milling may only put your PTV to where it was stock. Sinking a valve even a couple thou can have a large effect on combustion chamber volume. There are a lot of square inches on a 2.125" intake valve and a 1.59" exhaust valve. I only lost 1cc with the valve job I did on my heads. So a .006" mill was in order to make an apples to apples comparison. I left the combustion chambers completely stock. Which hurt my heart to do but since GM put 6 million hrs into CFD designing it with the pistons I figured leaving well enough be was the best course of action for now. There is usually a good 5-10cfm in any combustion chamber, especially with the exhaust. Once I know how far the injector physically sits from the piston and some other important clearance data I will most likely experiment with the combustion chamber.

For the E guys I am looking to bump the compression .5. I think that will be a good compromise for E. On the stock compression I have been able to run up to 32* off the hit and 35* of timing up top with no ill effect. It doesn't make or lose any power at those numbers. That alone tells me that we have way to little compression for E80 and above. Or my motor is severely down on compression and my rings are shot. We also have to consider that the cam is retarding as rpm climbs and we are losing DCR as we go.

Now, considering the stock cams IVC @ .050" we can get up to 212* intake lobe with a 106* centerline which puts us within 2* of the stock IVC. That would maintain our DCR or close enough. The stock cams IVO is -9.5 and the 212 cam on a 106 ICL is 0. The stock cams IVC is 29.5 and the 212 is 32*. I think the 212 on a 106 coupled with a 224 exhaust lobe with a 112 lobe sep still keeps us in the -6* overlap range vs. the stock -29.5, we would still have a very nice idle with plenty of vacuum. You would probably not even notice it was there. But with the IVO of 0 we could still possibly get a little vacuum pull as soon as it opens due to the quench area and that at .002" we do have some real over lap. I chose a 12* split due to the fact that the factory exhaust port sucks after .400 lift. Actually it isn't very good after .300". I believe that is the reasoning for the retard of the factory cam but at a certain point either the intake port doesn't draw enough or the factory exhaust can't push anymore and the engine stalls. A larger exhaust lobe could help this by keeping it open longer. I could go on and on with theory and what not but I think you get the point. We could retard that cam a bit if the exhaust PTV allows it and make up for it's size shortcomings. Unfortunately for us though, retarding the cam only makes the events happen later, not bigger. So regardless of retard or advance we are still limited by time and space. We are relying on piston speed at that point and VE to make up the differences.

A larger cam will bleed off DCR so we either need to mill or run a thinner gasket to make up for it with the IVC as long as PTV allows it. You cannot advance the cam past 0 with the ECM. The cam sits in the fully forward position when installed and runs there until commanded other wise.

So these "bigger" cams with 116 lobe seps make absolutely no since to me. I am willing to bet that some of their IVC's are in the 50's and are dropping more than 1 point of DCR and crushing any hopes of making tq. Most of them from what I have been told don't even use the VVT feature any more. Just a popular small cam 227/231 116+4 has a IVC of 45.5 and still no overlap. So it is now late as crap and still has no overlap to create velocity on the intake charge. At .050" at least. These cams could possibly be advanced as much as 10* though. However, I doubt it. The listed cam above has a IVO of 1.5 so maybe there is a PTV issue and that is the only way to get a larger cam in there. You just have to sacrifice the down low to make anything up top.

All the company's that are designing cams for these cars are well renowned and take great care and pride in their products so I am sure they did their homework. I am still in the homework phase so I could be talking out of my butt right now.

I just for the life of me can't figure out this 116 lobe sep deal.

[PRAY]

Originally Posted by David@Vengeance

We have several camshaft variations available for the LT1 that we've been using with proven performance results since the 2014 C7 first dropped. Our "Cam kit plus" offers everything that you need for what we feel is a complete and reliable camshaft install on these cars. Since the M6 Camaros do in fact have the AFM lifters in place, we do require you to delete this system for any of our custom camshafts. Our kit includes:

• Your choice of a Vengeance Racing custom grind camshaft w/ 32% fuel lobe
• Vengeance Racing .660" dual valve spring kit w/ Ti retainers
• Vengeance Racing 3/8" hardened pushrods
• C5R timing chain
• Fuel pump lash cap
• CompCams phaser limiter kit
• CompCams trunion upgrade kit
• GM VVT cam bolt
• GM crankshaft bolt
• CompCams 850 lifter set
• GM lifter trays
• GM MLS head gasket set
• GM LT exhaust gaskets
• DOD delete plug kit
• Your choice of ARP cylinder head bolts or studs

Check out the link below for this kit, and feel free to call/PM/e-mail me at any time if you have questions on what combination would work best for you!

http://vengeanceracing.net/vengeance...en-v-1368.html

Thanks for posting this David. Now people can see why cam swaps are so expensive. Just the parts list above is daunting.

[PRAY]

Originally Posted by drivingagain

Thanks for the hard work Pray! Really interested in the results you show. You are the closets vender in my area and focusing on best usable power for the gen 6. I hope to do business with you in the near future as well.

I look forward to working with you.

[Redlinez]

So if the heads come off to do a cam swap, I now see why I won't be getting a cam. Dang it, makes me miss my LS1 days, but this engine is sooooo much better. Bolt ons and a tune should be plenty. If I'm pulling heads off, I'm getting some kind of head work done! Then it just becomes out of my range of "affordability". Looking forward to hearing your numbers. Sounds like we will find out if porting the stock heads and leaving the cam alone makes more sense.

[PRAY]

Originally Posted by Redlinez

So if the heads come off to do a cam swap, I now see why I won't be getting a cam. Dang it, makes me miss my LS1 days, but this engine is sooooo much better. Bolt ons and a tune should be plenty. If I'm pulling heads off, I'm getting some kind of head work done! Then it just becomes out of my range of "affordability". Looking forward to hearing your numbers. Sounds like we will find out if porting the stock heads and leaving the cam alone makes more sense.

Yeah, that's why I am trying to gain 20rw out of these heads on the stock cam. The swap looks pretty easy from my stand point so far. If I can keep pricing in say the range of a ported MSD or headers and it makes more power then this will be a 500rw "bolt on" package all day and run 10's with traction in any weather. That is the sole goal of the ported heads right now. I am pretty sure on a stock converter it will trap 127 so puts you neck and neck with a stock ZL1 on the highway. You should be able to outrun one at the track.

[cmitchell17]

Originally Posted by PRAY

All good points and questions.

I will be using the phaser limiter. The most the stock cam is retarded at any point is 28* and that is basically in AFM mode at very light throttle in A8 cars. It is actually in all of the cam phasing tables. I ditch all of that anyway. It make the car much more responsive on the highway and the transition from AFM to 8cyl is almost un-noticeable once you zero the light throttle low rpm phasing out. During WOT the most the cam is retarded is 10* and that is only above 6,800. I can tell you from experience that GM nailed the cam timing in this motor stock. So using a phaser limiter that limits you to 24* is NBD.

I have not messed with the M6 car AFM. I have nothing to say on that matter.

Milling or a shorter head gasket will always move your valves closer to the pistons. However, depending on your valve job milling may only put your PTV to where it was stock. Sinking a valve even a couple thou can have a large effect on combustion chamber volume. There are a lot of square inches on a 2.125" intake valve and a 1.59" exhaust valve. I only lost 1cc with the valve job I did on my heads. So a .006" mill was in order to make an apples to apples comparison. I left the combustion chambers completely stock. Which hurt my heart to do but since GM put 6 million hrs into CFD designing it with the pistons I figured leaving well enough be was the best course of action for now. There is usually a good 5-10cfm in any combustion chamber, especially with the exhaust. Once I know how far the injector physically sits from the piston and some other important clearance data I will most likely experiment with the combustion chamber.

For the E guys I am looking to bump the compression .5. I think that will be a good compromise for E. On the stock compression I have been able to run up to 32* off the hit and 35* of timing up top with no ill effect. It doesn't make or lose any power at those numbers. That alone tells me that we have way to little compression for E80 and above. Or my motor is severely down on compression and my rings are shot. We also have to consider that the cam is retarding as rpm climbs and we are losing DCR as we go.

Now, considering the stock cams IVC @ .050" we can get up to 212* intake lobe with a 106* centerline which puts us within 2* of the stock IVC. That would maintain our DCR or close enough. The stock cams IVO is -9.5 and the 212 cam on a 106 ICL is 0. The stock cams IVC is 29.5 and the 212 is 32*. I think the 212 on a 106 coupled with a 224 exhaust lobe with a 112 lobe sep still keeps us in the -6* overlap range vs. the stock -29.5, we would still have a very nice idle with plenty of vacuum. You would probably not even notice it was there. But with the IVO of 0 we could still possibly get a little vacuum pull as soon as it opens due to the quench area and that at .002" we do have some real over lap. I chose a 12* split due to the fact that the factory exhaust port sucks after .400 lift. Actually it isn't very good after .300". I believe that is the reasoning for the retard of the factory cam but at a certain point either the intake port doesn't draw enough or the factory exhaust can't push anymore and the engine stalls. A larger exhaust lobe could help this by keeping it open longer. I could go on and on with theory and what not but I think you get the point. We could retard that cam a bit if the exhaust PTV allows it and make up for it's size shortcomings. Unfortunately for us though, retarding the cam only makes the events happen later, not bigger. So regardless of retard or advance we are still limited by time and space. We are relying on piston speed at that point and VE to make up the differences.

A larger cam will bleed off DCR so we either need to mill or run a thinner gasket to make up for it with the IVC as long as PTV allows it. You cannot advance the cam past 0 with the ECM. The cam sits in the fully forward position when installed and runs there until commanded other wise.

So these "bigger" cams with 116 lobe seps make absolutely no since to me. I am willing to bet that some of their IVC's are in the 50's and are dropping more than 1 point of DCR and crushing any hopes of making tq. Most of them from what I have been told don't even use the VVT feature any more. Just a popular small cam 227/231 116+4 has a IVC of 45.5 and still no overlap. So it is now late as crap and still has no overlap to create velocity on the intake charge. At .050" at least. These cams could possibly be advanced as much as 10* though. However, I doubt it. The listed cam above has a IVO of 1.5 so maybe there is a PTV issue and that is the only way to get a larger cam in there. You just have to sacrifice the down low to make anything up top.

All the company's that are designing cams for these cars are well renowned and take great care and pride in their products so I am sure they did their homework. I am still in the homework phase so I could be talking out of my butt right now.

I just for the life of me can't figure out this 116 lobe sep deal.

Do you think there is any more optimization left in the cam phasing tables for stock components? I was under the impression the phasing was just for marketing and to create a psuedo egr system, retarding the cam to keep exaust valve open longer to draw some exaust gas back in on the intake stroke? I don't see how fixed duration, non-independent vvt could be of any use?

Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk

[PRAY]

Originally Posted by cmitchell17

Do you think there is any more optimization left in the cam phasing tables for stock components? I was under the impression the phasing was just for marketing and to create a psuedo egr system, retarding the cam to keep exaust valve open longer to draw some exaust gas back in on the intake stroke? I don't see how fixed duration, non-independent vvt could be of any use?

Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk

I will type more from my laptop later. I have messed with cam timing on the stock cam a bit on the dyno. Everything I did hurt and it hurt bad.

With fixed duration VVT from all I can figure is; as piston speed and intake velocity increase with rpm, delaying the IVC makes the cam act "bigger" by moving the power band later. It doesn't cost you much of anything though since the velocity is helping fill the cylinder. Just as it would do in a fixed position cam that you installed retarded. But now we get the best of both worlds. You get the low end of the small cam in the advanced position and as you retard it you move the curve up and extend the rpm band. Retarding the cam severely in the light throttle low MAP areas does act as an EGR system. I know GPI has mastered the VVT cam for the GEN V and I am sure they have the GEN6 nailed as well. I think VVT is the only reason these cars make a ton of tq and are as fast as they are with the A8 on the stock converter. But with the size of the stock cam there is an absolute point of diminishing return with retarding this cam. The question is where does it lye? In the intake track, in the exhaust track, that is what I am going to try to figure out.

[Sixgunsled]

Thanks to everyone who posted info. I think I am going to see how far I can push the hp on the stock cam first. So far I have longtube headers, cat back, and a D1SC procharger. But a cam swap is likely in my future.

[BradfordCamaro]

Why can't I understand anything you guys are saying...?...

That is why we pay Tuners to do what they do.

[PRAY]

I updated my earlier post and finished my thought on it.