[67Builder]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

I think you're correct with regards to the process and the techniques...and yes, you can drive a fast car slow at first to learn the limits - all relatively intelligent people should.

But....there is a HUGE inherent advantage (imo) to driving a slow car fast that I don't think the article properly stressed (they mentioned it).

Slow cars reach their limits at slower speeds. Slower speeds mean more time between A and B.

And if A and B happen to be the entry and exit of a corner...a slow car fast will afford drivers more time to learn how to handle a corner properly.

You can't do the same thing in a fast car slow, because you're not tickling its limits...

Now that I can agree with for the most part. More time to learn is a better analysis of what's happening than what the author used in his article. I still don't think the advantage is going to be some astronomical thing that can't be overcome by spending time with your fast car in a learning phase.
If you take time to work your way through the track before you start trying to apply the skinny pedal. You can creep up on tickling those limits. And by the time you do, you should be be well enough versed to know what to do when you experience what happens when you go beyond said limits. Things like over/understeer are usually easy enough to correct. Some other things aren't so easy to correct. I've seen plenty of slow cars off in the grass and seen plenty of novices in fast cars hold great lines putting down good times.
It's all really about seat time IMO. No matter the speed or ability of the car, or driver. The more time you put in, the better you'll be.
Just do it smart.

[Provoste]

Originally Posted by 67Builder

That article makes some assumptions that are just totally absurd.
Car 1 goes 65 and spins off track, car 2 goes 63 and its too slow so he loses time, car 3 is perfect speed and the sun shines and god smiles down upon him.
If all three cars are exactly alike I can agree. But I've never seen a track day with 3 exactly alike cars... Ever! Tires, tire pressures, alignments, how much fuel is in the car, etc. will all change the speed your going want to hit that corner at.
The last time I was at VIR I got to drive a WRX and a CTS-V in addition to my 1LE.
The WRX was totally different than the CTS and 1LE in pretty much every corner. Sometimes It needed some trail braking to keep the front end planted better. The CTS and 1LE are far more balanced and if that WRX was car3 and perfectly hit the corner at 64 mph. The 1LE and CTS would be hitting that same corner at 70+ and passing him.

I know the author was trying to make a point about starting slow to learn the limits and all. But you should start slow with any car you're new to and creep up on the limits.
I'll take a well set up fast car to learn in over the best set up spec miata in the business. Once you have 4-5 track days under your belt, you should be getting pretty comfy with how your car with your particular setup will react to different turns and conditions.

The example of a Ferrari coming into a corner at 180 vs the 105 of the miata is valid if you're someone that just jumped into the Ferrari and tried to max it out like an idiot. If the Ferrari driver only has ever driven that one car on a track, but took the time to learn it as he should. He's at no more of a disadvantage in any corner than if a Miata driver tries to take the Ferrari out on track. The Miata driver will have to learn the car just as the Ferrari driver did (unless he's an idiot trying to max it on the first lap). Coming in at 180 is fine as long as you know where the braking zone starts for the equipment you're using, and how hard to hit or modulate those brakes. It's all learning, but starting slow doesn't offer some inherent advantage. Unless like i said, if you just buy a fast car and go all hero run before trying to learn it at all. But I guess that's why most track days require instructors for novices.

Respectfully- I Disagree. I couldn't agree with Jack more. Starting in slower cars does a number of thing- primarily, it allows drivers to become conversant and proficient in car control at a much less dangerous pace. By having a car with limited grip and HP, it teaches the driver to understand how to thread that thin line of slip/grip and to gain confidence in their ability to handle any situation you might face.

As an instructor with PCA, Chin, NASA & NCM- I can tell you there are some anomalies out there- the novice Z06 driver who is that .01% that is able to understand vehicle dynamics, on limit behavior and has natural car control. They are a rare butterfly though, the rest of us mere mortals that weren't born with balls of steel need to creep up on and gain comfort exploring and testing limits before we innately know how or handle that situation.

I can cite my own driver development curve- and credit my time as a 25 year old novice in a 170hp SVT Focus, learning the importance of carrying that last 1mph through the apex to not allow that Boxster to gap me as much down the straight! And yes, 1mph difference in Apex speed is the .2 seconds that separates 1st from 10th in a spec Miata field.

...Just my experience wheeling everything from that 170hp SVT Focus, to now a SS 1LE! On a side note- I've met Jack a number of times at the track, and he is the real deal, good dude, good driver.

Cheers-

Eric

[seanblurr]

And even when you arent a newbie anymore, you might stay in a "slow" car! They are just so much damn fun. *see below.

[Ryephile]

I just finished reading the article. It's very good and dripping with wisdom. I respectfully disagree with 67Builder; building on a foundation of low-limit experience gives you much more on-limit experience than pretending you're as good as a truly quick car. Once you get that seat time with all that on-the-limit behavior, then it's easier to apply that to a quicker pace vehicle. So yes, I agree seat time is crucial, but the progression and efficient use of that seat time will separate the pros and the schmoes.

I can't recall which book said it, but there's a driver skill progression that goes like this:

Step 1: Unconscious Incompetence
Step 2: Conscious Incompetence
Step 3: Conscious Competence
Step 4: Unconscious Competence

That final step is the definition of being "in the zone", and it also frees up mental resource capacity to look around, chat over the radio, fiddle with settings, etc.

[67Builder]

Originally Posted by Provoste

Respectfully- I think you're wrong. I couldn't agree with Jack more. Starting in slower cars does a number of thing- primarily, it allows drivers to become conversant and proficient in car control at a much less dangerous pace. By having a car with limited grip and HP, it teaches the driver to understand how to thread that thin line of slip/grip and to gain confidence in their ability to handle any situation you might face.

As an instructor with PCA, Chin, NASA & NCM- I can tell you there are some anomalies out there- the novice Z06 driver who is that .01% that is able to understand vehicle dynamics, on limit behavior and has natural car control. They are a rare butterfly though, the rest of us mere mortals that weren't born with balls of steel need to creep up on and gain comfort exploring and testing limits before we innately know how or handle that situation.

I can cite my own driver development curve- and credit my time as a 25 year old novice in a 170hp SVT Focus, learning the importance of carrying that last 1mph through the apex to not allow that Boxster to gap me as much down the straight! And yes, 1mph difference in Apex speed is the .2 seconds that separates 1st from 10th in a spec Miata field.

...Just my experience wheeling everything from that 170hp SVT Focus, to now a SS 1LE! On a side note- I've met Jack a number of times at the track, and he is the real deal, good dude, good driver.

Cheers-

Eric

I can respect that, and as you say those couple of tenths is important when racing in a spec Miata field or some other sanctioned race. But the overwhelming number of people reading this forum or even his column will never race in a such a race. Most folks on here enjoy their HPDE days and autocross fun (most will never set tire on a track actually). Telling those people they should be spending time learning to wring the most out of a slower car to gain those couple of tenths on a very tightly regulated field is silly because they won't see much benefit when running in a Chin run group with a massively wide variety of cars. There is always a faster car on track, and if you're worried about some Boxter gapping you in your Miata, a Camaro/Mustang/Viper/Porsche/Mclaren will be passing the both of you.
When there is no win other than progressing in your skill and comfort levels by the end of the day's sessions, it's more about your enjoyment wether or not you feel as if you've gained anything from your seat time. If you run a faster lap than your buddy it's fun to break his chops about how you're obviously the better driver. But it doesn't really mean anything.
For one of those Miata masters to tell others that it's better to drive a slow car fast than a fast one slow doesn't mean much to average Joe Stickshift when he's only hitting a few events a year and just enjoys getting to use his car in a manner that he otherwise can't (or shouldn't) on normal public roads.
I'm all for learning the car and track at an appropriate pace. And I do think most try to go too fast too soon. But let's face facts. In the ZL1 forum there's an average age thread and most seem to be old farts like myself (aside from Mr. Wyndham of course). And if any of them are like me, they're just looking for some fun days running around a track and enjoying their time spent behind the wheels of these amazing machines.
I think if someone has the time, money, and inclination to start off with some beater to learn the limits of adhesion. They should absolutely do that.
I also think we shouldn't need balls of steel as you say to creep up on testing those limits, you just need some brains and some time behind the wheel of your specific car. Fast car or slow car, they all have limits. And you should find those limits at a pace that doesn't go beyond your abilities.

[67Builder]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

I just finished reading the article. It's very good and dripping with wisdom. I respectfully disagree with 67Builder; building on a foundation of low-limit experience gives you much more on-limit experience than pretending you're as good as a truly quick car. Once you get that seat time with all that on-the-limit behavior, then it's easier to apply that to a quicker pace vehicle. So yes, I agree seat time is crucial, but the progression and efficient use of that seat time will separate the pros and the schmoes.

I can't recall which book said it, but there's a driver skill progression that goes like this:

Step 1: Unconscious Incompetence
Step 2: Conscious Incompetence
Step 3: Conscious Competence
Step 4: Unconscious Competence

That final step is the definition of being "in the zone", and it also frees up mental resource capacity to look around, chat over the radio, fiddle with settings, etc.

Again I agree, but only to a point. No matter if you start in a slow or fast car, it's seat time and working your way up to the limits that will provide you the knowledge required to be a competent driver. And competent is about all that the majority can ever hope to be. If someone didn't grow up racing, or just plain doesn't have time to hit as many events as they'd like to. Tellng them they're just never going to be able to understand because they've never spent time working the wheel in a lower end car is pretty damn dismissive. As I said before, if you take your fast car and think you're a hero on day one, you're bound for some pain for sure. But anyone and I really do mean anyone given enough time and an instructor that can work with them can be made to drive their fast cars in a competent manner. Is he ever going to be Tommy Milner? Nope! But as long as he's enjoying himself (or herself), that's all that really matters. Have fun with it.

[meyouand987.2]

learning to race/track is exactly like learning to fly, there is a reason you start in a Cessna 172, not a Citation jet.

[detltu]

A lot of interesting discussion here. I think some of you have made the authors point better than he did. Some of his examples are poor.
As some of you have alluded to, the big advantages of a slower car are:
1. More time to digest what is happening. Everything happens slower if you are going slower.
2. Going slow means any major mistakes or off track incidents are less likely to be catastrophic.
3. Driving a slower car forces you to focus on braking and handling more to improve lap times. (actually not that different than a fast car).
I'll add:
4. Typically going to be cheaper on consumables. Gas, tires, brakes, fluids. (this is why I am trying to get my 3rd gen road course ready)

67Builder makes an excellent point though.
None of those things are overwhelming advantages over a faster car. Seat time will trump these advantages pretty quick. Yeah the guy in the Miata may move up the run groups a little faster, but it won't be drastic.

if this article discourages anyone from taking their car out to the track because it is "too fast" then this is a terrible article.

The great thing about our Camaro's is they are built to handle this sort of work. I can go out and push the car hard and never have any concerns about mechanical failure. The biggest thing is to be methodical when pushing the limits.

[Casalino]

Originally Posted by detltu

67Builder makes an excellent point though.
None of those things are overwhelming advantages over a faster car. Seat time will trump these advantages pretty quick. Yeah the guy in the Miata may move up the run groups a little faster, but it won't be drastic.

if this article discourages anyone from taking their car out to the track because it is "too fast" then this is a terrible article.

Great points

[mjk3888]

I understand and even agree with the premise that a slower car could be easier to learn to drive on. However, I think the approach ability of the SS 1LE is so great that it almost gives you the same feel of control that a slower car does.

I was able to attend starting line school this past saturday and on a tight and technical course I was able to cut my lap time from 44 seconds to 34 seconds and the fastest in class with some expert instructions. I do believe I have some good driving instincts but I think the improvement from my first run to my last run is indicative of this car's ability to support a Novice driver.

Also outside of the Car's dynamics the PDR system and Cosworth Toolbox Data Logging are INVALUABLE when it comes to learning where you could improve. You aren't forced to retain all of your mistakes to memory as you can study them later and even find new mistakes that you or your instructor may have missed in real time.

I went home and viewed my PDR footage and using the Cosworth Toolbox, I was able to see my driving line was consistently too wide on one of the main turns of the course. I was actually able to compare it side by side with the lap that my instructor drove in the car.

As a Novice learning how to drive in performance events, this car has yet to do anything but impress me! Nothing about the car is intimidating.

I believe having such confidence in the car is actually extremely helpful. I have no hesitation when instructed "Wait longer before you turn in... Wait longer before you brake... Get back in the gas sooner". I have no hesitation because I know when I ask the car to do something, it will do it.

[00 Trans Ram]

A lot of it depends upon the driver. When I instruct at PCA events, I separate people (in my mind) into 4 groups:

1) Slow drivers, w/ slow cars
2) Fast drivers, w/ slow cars
3) Slow drivers, w/ fast cars
4) Fast drivers, w/ fast cars

Given that the only reason they have an instructor in the first place is because they are inexperienced, I'll gladly instruct anyone from groups 1-3. Not a fan of Group 4.

I grew up driving moderately fast cars. 1966 Mustang, 1995 Camaro, 2000 Firebird, 2000 Trans Am WS6. When I go around to racing the WS6, I had 8 years' experience driving that same exact chassis on the road. Then, I did 4 years of autox.

By the end of that time, I knew the limits of that car. I knew that I could enter a turn at 64, but not 65. I knew what it felt like to get that 10% yaw rate in a turn that isn't "sliding", but is actually the optimal slip angle for slicks - that something you can't see or hear, but can only feel in your butt.

Therefore, in my first ever road race, I qualified 1st and finished 2nd (accidentally waved 1st place by on last lap, thinking he was a lap down in another class).

However, while I was racing my WS6, I also did some endurance races in a Nissan 240. I think it had about 17hp (just joking, I think). But, it was SOOO different. Not violent like my WS6. You could just race balls-out around the entire course, and it was as easy as a Sunday drive.

I guess my point is that there are a lot of different ways to get into racing. But, they all begin with one thing - drive only as far as your OWN limits. Never push the car's limits until you know where yours are.

[67Builder]

Originally Posted by 00 Trans Ram

I guess my point is that there are a lot of different ways to get into racing. But, they all begin with one thing - drive only as far as your OWN limits. Never push the car's limits until you know where yours are.

Truth!

[Eric SS]

Originally Posted by mjk3888

I understand and even agree with the premise that a slower car could be easier to learn to drive on. However, I think the approach ability of the SS 1LE is so great that it almost gives you the same feel of control that a slower car does.

While I agree with you, this is the type of thinking that can get a novice into trouble on the track. Don't rely on the car to do things for you. Nannies might keep you from spinning if you come out of a corner and get on the throttle to quickly but nothing will save you if you go into a corner to hot and the car just won't turn quickly enough to keep you on the track. An off at 45mph is a lot more controllable than an off at 75mph. And if you are at a track with little runoff, it doesn't take much to crunch your car.

You don't have to watch this whole video (or any of it lol) but this is a track day I took my SS Sedan to in November and you can see just how narrow it is and we were hitting 130mph+ at the end of the straight in the higher horsepower cars. You have to start to brake A LOT earlier than you think you do at that speed. Very little runoff on this track in numerous areas and very close concrete walls. I would not recommend learning in a fast car at this track. If you overcook a turn you're going to hit a wall. You can see at 1:17 I get pretty loose (I drive with the nannies off. It took 4 corners to get back into my rhythm. Pretty ugly. LOL) and If it couldn't have been caught I would have hit the barriers. That was a 60mph turn in my car.

[mjk3888]

Originally Posted by Eric SS

While I agree with you, this is the type of thinking that can get a novice into trouble on the track. Don't rely on the car to do things for you. Nannies might keep you from spinning if you come out of a corner and get on the throttle to quickly but nothing will save you if you go into a corner to hot and the car just won't turn quickly enough to keep you on the track. An off at 45mph is a lot more controllable than an off at 75mph. And if you are at a track with little runoff, it doesn't take much to crunch your car.

You don't have to watch this whole video (or any of it lol) but this is a track day I took my SS Sedan to in November and you can see just how narrow it is and we were hitting 130mph+ at the end of the straight in the higher horsepower cars. You have to start to brake A LOT earlier than you think you do at that speed. Very little runoff on this track in numerous areas and very close concrete walls. I would not recommend learning in a fast car at this track. If you overcook a turn you're going to hit a wall. You can see at 1:17 I get pretty loose (I drive with the nannies off. It took 4 corners to get back into my rhythm. Pretty ugly. LOL) and If it couldn't have been caught I would have hit the barriers. That was a 60mph turn in my car.

I'm discussing learning in an SS 1LE as an exception to the rule of big fast cars are worse to learn in. After watching that video, I would say that an SS sedan is not an exception to that rule and that particular track is probably terrible to learn on for any novice in any car.

There is a reason I'm starting off with Auto X instead of hitting a track day right away. Cone scuff marks are much easier to fix than a totaled car.