[EDFHOBBIES]

Originally Posted by toohighpsi

The problem is that you don't get the same level of performance, even with the same power numbers. I had the opportunity to experience this first hand last year on power tour. Had a friend there with 2016 SS that had heads, cam, intake, longtubes, etc. to make 550 RWHP - exactly the same power that the Magnuson SC only Camaro SS had that I was driving. We did tons of roll-ons one evening during a 40 mile drive to dinner starting at all different speeds, and the results were always the same, NA lost every time.

If the roll on started with both cars near peak RPM point, there was an instant where they were equal, then the shift happened and it was all over at that point. The PD blower made so much more power at the lower RPM, the NA car was left looking at taillights until it could reach max rpm where it would hang on a little before another shift which put it even further behind.

We covered this "Power Under the Curve" in another post recently and the plots there are quite simple at showing the benefit of making more power everywhere (traits of PD or nitrous), not just at a higher RPM which is normally the case with NA or Centri SCs.

I don't believe that for 1 second..

Your telling me that just a bolt on Maggi at stock level with no meth or headers on 93 vs Cam, heads, headers and e85 wins every time.. If that is the case he needs a new speed shop, needs to learn how to no lift shift, or it was about 55 degrees out!

You be crazy not to take all motor 550 rwhp over 550 on blower rwhp. I guarantee the torque on all motor w e85 would be a lot more than the procharger.. probably equal to maggi since we know from testing e85 raises torque.

like I said the most of the fuel system cost would be done... then do a FI.

I think everyone has this big image in there head that SC is the answer and they like to boast that they have one.. But the stock level is easily out grown especially in 100 degrees no matter the system.

It is the cheapest power for the dollar other than NOS, not many discuss the downsides... you have newbies that read the forums and want all this power and never are advised about upgrades after the blower in this case... a better fuel system... or the cheaper more dangerous route of meth, or better heat exchangers and tanks for PD guys.. and so on..

If we are getting nit picky do the real turbos over that belt driven turbo.. they make the most power with our inadequate fuel systems.


This dyno is from 6th gen post in engine/bolt on in our forum ported TB, kooks and e85.. Imagine if he had heads and cam... think of the torque!

[ProCharger]

Originally Posted by toohighpsi

Maybe you missed them or the sweet spot isn't an big as you think. Data was from an A8 Camaro SS in which case there was an almost 50HP disparity after the shift with both cars making the same peak power. Actual data compiled from the dyno and track, link below.

http://www.camaro6.com/forums/showth...r+curve&page=2

Ahhhhhh,

The old "dyno data"... combined with which "should" run faster at the track post. I totally respect the time put into that post, and I am a data nerdball.... But I have to look BEYOND, random quick dyno run data and theories.. and look at what runs the numbers on the street and track.

And since it looks like you work for Magnuson or another SC company. I must say, I do love your products and feel you have a great group of guys there. So I hope you take this post kind-heartedly as I try to put a slight rebuttal to your argument.

Considering the LT1 and LT4 have been out for years and years now.
As have loads of other forced induction options...
Everyone has plenty of time to take the "dyno data" theory and set records.
But yet, it really hasn't happened.

I guess I am honored that we proudly hold ALL LT1 and LT4 track records.
We hold them for both the Camaro, and the Corvette's.

1/8th mile
1/4 mile

and even

1/2 mile.


No fancy "dyno" data needed for that... just real world results.

NOTE #1: I see in that datalog that its running 20 degrees of timing for that entire pull and no knock. I have a very very very hard time believing that was done on pump gas, since I have logs of cars with that very supercharger on them, and they do NOT hold anywhere NEAR that timing on full pulls.

So if you did in fact NOT run actual pump gas on that run. You might want to add that info, because its very misleading to customers if not. Seems to be a trend of people using 100 or 110 or even E85 (on fords) and not telling customers.

NOTE #2: Plus we have a price point that I feel our customers LOVE.
Because they can save for other parts and pieces like cams, meth systems, converters, axles, tires, etc.

NOTE #3: I am sure someone will take the crown from our customers, but for 3 years we have helped build the most powerful reliable forced induction machines out there. And I am honored that our customers are out there doing that and pushing the levels of what is "possible" with street cars these days. Its truly amazing.

[ponchss]

Thanks for the response procharger, so pretty much at stock levels there won't be a difference until you change out the pullies and want to make north of 750 rwhp (after piston and rods). Slowhawk that's what I figured because it's only 350 dollars more when buying the kit.

[steelheadrob]

I got no dog in the fight here. I plan to add a SC after I run mine stock at the track in the spring. I have no plans to use E85, Meth, Nitrous or race fuel. I only care about what is the fastest on 93. I am looking forward to seeing FI cars added to the fast list in the spring, to help make my decision.

[toohighpsi]

Originally Posted by ProCharger

Ahhhhhh,

And since it looks like you work for Magnuson or another SC company. I must say, I do love your products and feel you have a great group of guys there.

Indeed and right back at you! You guys clearly have done a great job in the aftermarket over the years and your achievements stand for it. I too have had quite a but of experience with the ProCharger product and probably built the first sheet aluminum tank 3 core intercooler for a ProCharger back in 2001. You can probably find it somewhere on my old site www.toohighpsi.com

While I don't really know many folks ProCharger yet I'm looking forward to bumping into you guys at the track. Magnuson previously has never been a "Racing" focused company, probably more along the lines of a street performance and hot rodding, but that is changing quickly.

I'm the new guy there - drag racer, engine guy, and data nut. After spending over 10 years developing the SC systems for virtually every OEM application in the world, I'm really excited to be part of the aftermarket industry that has always been my passion and the new products we are releasing - much more focused at the racing environment.

The dyno plots used in the "power under the curve" were provided by forum members running pump gas.
The 1/4 mile HPtuner data was from my car for the purpose of showing A8 shift RPM points. That 10.81 pass was on MS109 and well documented when it happened back in April 2016 with engine dyno plots, rwhp plots, and timeslips. The car was also running nittos, but otherwise in fully CARB approved condition. Was hoping to be at the track tonight (Irwindale), but it's raining in California, who would have thought...

[ProCharger]

Originally Posted by toohighpsi

Indeed and right back at you! You guys clearly have done a great job in the aftermarket over the years and your achievements stand for it. I too have had quite a but of experience with the ProCharger product and probably built the first sheet aluminum tank 3 core intercooler for a ProCharger back in 2001. You can probably find it somewhere on my old site www.toohighpsi.com

While I don't really know many folks ProCharger yet I'm looking forward to bumping into you guys at the track. Magnuson previously has never been a "Racing" focused company, probably more along the lines of a street performance and hot rodding, but that is changing quickly.

Thats awesome to hear man! LOVE IT.
Its a great time to be "in the sport" I feel.
Just glad that we can all be a part of it.

The 1/4 mile HPtuner data was from my car for the purpose of showing A8 shift RPM points. That 10.81 pass was on MS109

Dang I was close...My guess was going to be 110 Sunoco. LOL.

Kinda figured it was based on that log you had posted.
I been around a LOT of LT1 and LT4's with all versions of power adders.
Felt like I had a good "feel" for what I saw in that log.

Was hoping to be at the track tonight (Irwindale), but it's raining in California, who would have thought...

I literally thought the state was allergic to rain. Now you have too much it seems. Crazy!

[Ponyeatr16ss]

What's the install time for a one man show in the driveway that is mechanically inclined? Meaning I refuse to pay to play. I know how to turn a wrench and don't wanna pay anyone to do my work.

[Cdflyer]

Originally Posted by Ponyeatr16ss

What's the install time for a one man show in the driveway that is mechanically inclined? Meaning I refuse to pay to play. I know how to turn a wrench and don't wanna pay anyone to do my work.

Once mine hits my door, I'll let you know. I'll be in my unheated garage in Chicagoland doing the same thing. I'm planning on it taking the weekend, maybe.

[Ponyeatr16ss]

Originally Posted by Cdflyer

Once mine hits my door, I'll let you know. I'll be in my unheated garage in Chicagoland doing the same thing. I'm planning on it taking the weekend, maybe.

By the looks of it and it looking so simple I'm thinking less than 8 hours by myself maybe less. Trying to find the instructions electronically on the net but I can't find anything.

[Mr. Rager]

Since we have a couple of folks from different companies posting here claiming to be data driven, I have a question that I never see addressed at all. Regarding the tuning supplied in a stock kit, are there updates made to the torque estimator and TCU calibration? As I understand it the 2017 A8 which I have has to have the TCU sent in to be able to tune it with HP tuners so my guess is no updates are made to the transmission calibration. Why is that ok? Why is it unnecessary to adjust clutch apply/line pressure for the increase in power.

Based on my experience as an engineer, having this all done correctly is critical to the survival and overall performance of the system.

Also how much time would you say is spent validating the longevity of the systems? Are you just checking fit and finish and initial/short term performance, or does it get stuck on a company car that gets a new driver every month to see what pukes after 25-50k miles of somewhat hard use?

I am also a bit skeptical of some of the tuning that gets done. Is it simple rescaling maf tables only and calling it good or are you really tuning to the fine detail, vve, vvt, mbt timing, using cylinder pressure pickups? I think we all know about an hour will nail down a WOT cal with little instrumentation but it takes far longer for drivability. I have tuned many wildly modified engines carb/stock pcm/aftermarket efi. I currently lack the time, energy, and patience to learn LT1/direct injection tuning at the moment with an infant son and would like to put a blower on my 17. I need a little convincing on the methods used, 20 years of performance aftermarket has made me skeptical.

Also does Procharger offer any type of optional powertrain warranty like the others?

[Cdflyer]

Originally Posted by Ponyeatr16ss

By the looks of it and it looking so simple I'm thinking less than 8 hours by myself maybe less. Trying to find the instructions electronically on the net but I can't find anything.

http://www.phastekperformance.com/v/...-Camaro-SS.pdf

Gotta love Phastek!

[Ponyeatr16ss]

Originally Posted by Cdflyer

http://www.phastekperformance.com/v/...-Camaro-SS.pdf

Gotta love Phastek!

Damn I didn't even think to look there. Good lookin out!

[DFW1LE]

Originally Posted by Mr. Rager

Also does Procharger offer any type of optional powertrain warranty like the others?

Can you explain how these powertrain warranties work that you mention are offered from other manufacturers?

I'm skeptical of any manufacturer that would provide a powertrain warranty to go along with their SC product, and if they did, would you really be covered for damage elsewhere in your powertrain, unless it could be proven that such damage was attributed directly to a malfunctioning SC.

[Mr. Rager]

The warranty is sort of like an insurance policy issued by a third party. Usually there is a stipulation that the parts be installed by an SAE certified mechanic or shop and sometimes include limitations from the cars purchase date/milage. Then if there is a failure they eat the bill for labor/parts with some deductible. Also the supercharger is usually the only mod allowed aside from a catback, and must use their tune. The thing to keep in mind is that you're adding nearly 200hp to the car, nothing actually has to malfunction with the SC system for parts to scatter all over the interstate. Just takes an inclusion in the material here or there or a scuff on a ring land.

There are a lot of stories on the internet about problems with this type of arrangement, but I have had an engine failure with blower car. This was with a ford product and all repair and even submission of the bill to the warranty company was handled by the service guys at the dealer, I think it cost me $100 and a couple weeks of down time in the end.

Maggie, Edlebrock and I believe Whipple are offering them as options. I know the Edelbrock requirements are in their install docs.