[newmoon]

Originally Posted by NW-99SS

The biggest question for the GT500 is where do they focus it's performance?

The 13/14 Trinity was top HP for all domestics, at that point in time. No one else came close aside from a very expensive ZR1 which, while faster, is apples to oranges and still less HP.

Fast forward to Demons, Hellcat Redeye's and ZLEs...

Ford is in one hell of a tough spot IMO. I think it's safe to assume they will have a hard time matching any Demon/Redeye acceleration. I also think it's safe to say the S550 chassis doesn't have handling numbers within ZL1 range, never mind ZLE spec.

So where do they slot this car? Slightly faster than a ZL1, but similar handling or slightly less (I will be pleasantly surprised to see a GT500 handle like a base ZL1, even with a track pack). Or try to compete with Mopar on acceleration and sacrifice some handling making the ZL1/ZLE gap that much more pronounced.

I really hope it's a successful car either way. Tough competition makes for better cars from all manufacturer's...maybe it will push the Camaro team to an LT5 Camaro.

How do you figure this? Taken from the H2H article it seems to me that the ZL1 straightaway speed kept it on top, not the handling.

"Even a cursory glance at the speed trace (above) should leave you wondering, "How the heck does the GT350R wind up only 70 feet behind the ZL1 at the checkered flag?" The Camaro is dramatically faster on the front straight, grips better around the long, lower-speed Turn 2 and slingshots around the very quick Turn 8 faster than the Shelby. But the Ford catches up in nips and bits—a little here, a little there."

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Well said, shaffe. I’ve always felt the same way about that. Somehow Ford didn’t see the 6th Gen 1LE or ZL1 coming. Or at least didn’t expect them to be as good as they are. They were focused on the Z/28, which was targeted at a very slim demographic AND was on the way out almost from the day it landed, due to the not so secret migration to Alpha for Gen 6. I also think that is part of the reason for the delays to GT500. Not wanting to get caught aiming at the wrong target again and recalibration to respond to Redeye and ZLE. The GT350/350R were most likely planned to exit after 2017, with the GT500 coming in to wrap up the S550 story, but with the delays, keeping GT350/350R around makes sense, because they are awesome cars. Problem is, it handcuffed what Ford could really accomplish with Bullit and PP2 without tarnishing GT350’s crown. They, especially PP2, got dumbed down to protect the still-on-the-lot GT350.

Keeping the GT350 around makes no sense. It is slower than the A10 GT in a straight line. I'd be willing to put money on the PP2 beating it around a track...that is until the PP2 overheats or the GT350 catches on fire. It can't beat the ZL1 at anything. I'd bet the SS 1LE could whup the non-R. So what is it's purpose at this point? To cost money while losing at everything but sounding and looking good while being behind the competition and holding the rest of the Mustang lineup hostage? I doubt anyone could seriously buy a non-R GT350 and NOT get laughed at.

Originally Posted by newmoon

How do you figure this? Taken from the H2H article it seems to me that the ZL1 straightaway speed kept it on top, not the handling.

"Even a cursory glance at the speed trace (above) should leave you wondering, "How the heck does the GT350R wind up only 70 feet behind the ZL1 at the checkered flag?" The Camaro is dramatically faster on the front straight, grips better around the long, lower-speed Turn 2 and slingshots around the very quick Turn 8 faster than the Shelby. But the Ford catches up in nips and bits—a little here, a little there."

Drive a ZL1 and then tell me the handling didn't have a major impact on the ass kicking it delivered to the R.

The R had a LOT of advantages. Let's say the suspension between the two cars were similar. Ok so the ZL1 had the HP/TQ advantage. Outside of that every other advantage went to the R. The ZL1 is fully optioned and heavier. Part of the weight advantage that goes to the R is rotational mass (CF wheels) which makes up a lot. The ZL1 also has that heavy blower on the front making it nose heavy. And the RPMs are nowhere as high as the R. So do you really think that having one advantage did the trick? It is obvious that the ZL1 is on a much better chassis than the R is. And the entire car was built perfectly, unlike the R. Even down to the tires. GM did not settle for an off the shelf tire like Ford did. They contracted GY to make a tire specifically for this car. So how else could a car that is not built for the track beat the snot out of a purpose track built car? The R should have done better than it did despite the HP/TQ deficit. And the fact that the SLE matched it also proves that something was lacking in the Ford camp. Face it. GM did what Ford did but better and all in a package that includes everything and doesn't have to be pieced together.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Keeping the GT350 around makes no sense. It is slower than the A10 GT in a straight line. I'd be willing to put money on the PP2 beating it around a track...that is until the PP2 overheats or the GT350 catches on fire. It can't beat the ZL1 at anything. I'd bet the SS 1LE could whup the non-R. So what is it's purpose at this point? To cost money while losing at everything but sounding and looking good while being behind the competition and holding the rest of the Mustang lineup hostage? I doubt anyone could seriously buy a non-R GT350 and NOT get laughed at.


Drive a ZL1 and then tell me the handling didn't have a major impact on the ass kicking it delivered to the R.

The R had a LOT of advantages. Let's say the suspension between the two cars were similar. Ok so the ZL1 had the HP/TQ advantage. Outside of that every other advantage went to the R. The ZL1 is fully optioned and heavier. Part of the weight advantage that goes to the R is rotational mass (CF wheels) which makes up a lot. The ZL1 also has that heavy blower on the front making it nose heavy. And the RPMs are nowhere as high as the R. So do you really think that having one advantage did the trick? It is obvious that the ZL1 is on a much better chassis than the R is. And the entire car was built perfectly, unlike the R. Even down to the tires. GM did not settle for an off the shelf tire like Ford did. They contracted GY to make a tire specifically for this car. So how else could a car that is not built for the track beat the snot out of a purpose track built car? The R should have done better than it did despite the HP/TQ deficit. And the fact that the SLE matched it also proves that something was lacking in the Ford camp. Face it. GM did what Ford did but better and all in a package that includes everything and doesn't have to be pieced together.

So finishing only 70' in front of a car that is down 124 hp and 221 lbs tq, is a !ss kicking.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by newmoon

The 18 GT is faster than the SS in time and mph, the Camaros A10 didn't help it.

Well the Camaro was built right the first time so they didn't even need the A10. It was more just a fancy new gadget to throw in as incentive to attract potential buyers. GM doesn't typically do major changes. Unlike Ford who seems to always have to completely redesign the entire damn Mustang after 2 years and finally when they have it right they move to the next Gen and it gets slower. But, the A10 did close the gap and made it a driver's race and that was all that they needed to do. They more than likely are working on the 8th Gen at this point while Ford is trying to figure out if they should allow you to add coolers or a "Tech Package" AND a "Drag Package" or if they'll just let you have one or the other for the 7th Gen.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by newmoon

So finishing only 70' in front of a car that is down 124 hp and 221 lbs tq, is a !ss kicking.

When you cost more and have 5 advantages and have $20K in markups and are supposed to be built for what you lost in...yea I'd say that was a thorough ass kicking.

[NW-99SS]

An argument that shows the ultimate R handling Mustang, finishing behind a base ZL1 on a road course is EXACTLY how I figure the Camaro chassis and leaps and bounds better than the S550 for handling.

Again, not even in the same ZIP code as the ZLE.

So I reiterate - the GT500 is in a seriously tough spot. Attempt to dethrone Mopar on acceleration, or attempt to handle like a ZL1/ZLE...

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by newmoon

So finishing only 70' in front of a car that is down 124 hp and 221 lbs tq, is a !ss kicking.

Originally Posted by newmoon

I get your point but the base ZL1 was never intended to be a track car like the GT350R was

...and it won!

[13vertss]

Originally Posted by newmoon

So finishing only 70' in front of a car that is down 124 hp and 221 lbs tq, is a !ss kicking.

That's just one lap. How many laps in a race, one

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Well said, shaffe. I’ve always felt the same way about that. Somehow Ford didn’t see the 6th Gen 1LE or ZL1 coming. Or at least didn’t expect them to be as good as they are. They were focused on the Z/28, which was targeted at a very slim demographic AND was on the way out almost from the day it landed, due to the not so secret migration to Alpha for Gen 6. I also think that is part of the reason for the delays to GT500. Not wanting to get caught aiming at the wrong target again and recalibration to respond to Redeye and ZLE. The GT350/350R were most likely planned to exit after 2017, with the GT500 coming in to wrap up the S550 story, but with the delays, keeping GT350/350R around makes sense, because they are awesome cars. Problem is, it handcuffed what Ford could really accomplish with Bullit and PP2 without tarnishing GT350’s crown. They, especially PP2, got dumbed down to protect the still-on-the-lot GT350.

I agree with pretty much everything you said. I have said it before, I think Ford got totally caught with their pants down at just how damn good the Alpha Camaro is. I am sure they expected it to be better, I don't think anyone expected it to be as good as it is.

Be honest Camaro faithful, before any real performance numbers were out there on the 6th gen did any of you expect the SS 1LE to almost match the outgoing 75K Z/28?

I agree the only reason they kept the 350 around is so they had a top end model and the GT wasn't top of the range

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

The problem is that MSRP doesn't matter if you can't get the car for that price. So it does take away from the car. Let's say it matches the ZL1 and the MSRP is $65K. But let's say you can't get it for that price and the lowest you can get one for is $90K. Well that means you're spending $90K on a car that matches a $65K car. So while Ford sees no benefit it still takes away from the buyer and decreases the performance value of that car.


My statement was more to make a point. Yes it was built to compete with the Z28. Or so we believe. However there still have been statements criticizing the LT4 engine and praising the Voodoo. And all I'm saying is that if the VD was that good then it should have been able to keep up with the elderly COPD truck engine that is the LT4.

I agree and disagree. I get what you are saying but your original post on the topic.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

On the other hand, after all this bullshit with Ford and the release date on the GT500, you better hope and pray to God that it does outperform the ZL1 in EVERY aspect AND comes in at the same price without markups. Because if even one of those is off, then it will be a complete failure in my book. So don't do your victory dance just yet skippy.

For the most part, the mark up part is out of Ford's control, and to me if they make the car that performs the way we all hope it does and sets an MSRP that is fair/relative to the competition then that is a success in my book. That to me is Ford accomplished their mission, outperforms the competition and is set at a fair price relative to the competition. What the market dictates they sell for is a different story IMO. It is not Ford's fault if dealers charge insane mark ups. my local Chevy dealers tried the same with Z/28 and in a month or so the mark ups went away at the very end they couldn't give them away.

BUT I do see what you are saying that for the buyer it would take away value, but that is a free market. As long as their are people willing to shell out extra $$$ stealerships will charge it.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Keeping the GT350 around makes no sense. It is slower than the A10 GT in a straight line. I'd be willing to put money on the PP2 beating it around a track...that is until the PP2 overheats or the GT350 catches on fire. It can't beat the ZL1 at anything. I'd bet the SS 1LE could whup the non-R. So what is it's purpose at this point? To cost money while losing at everything but sounding and looking good while being behind the competition and holding the rest of the Mustang lineup hostage? I doubt anyone could seriously buy a non-R GT350 and NOT get laughed at.


Drive a ZL1 and then tell me the handling didn't have a major impact on the ass kicking it delivered to the R.

The R had a LOT of advantages. Let's say the suspension between the two cars were similar. Ok so the ZL1 had the HP/TQ advantage. Outside of that every other advantage went to the R. The ZL1 is fully optioned and heavier. Part of the weight advantage that goes to the R is rotational mass (CF wheels) which makes up a lot. The ZL1 also has that heavy blower on the front making it nose heavy. And the RPMs are nowhere as high as the R. So do you really think that having one advantage did the trick? It is obvious that the ZL1 is on a much better chassis than the R is. And the entire car was built perfectly, unlike the R. Even down to the tires. GM did not settle for an off the shelf tire like Ford did. They contracted GY to make a tire specifically for this car. So how else could a car that is not built for the track beat the snot out of a purpose track built car? The R should have done better than it did despite the HP/TQ deficit. And the fact that the SLE matched it also proves that something was lacking in the Ford camp. Face it. GM did what Ford did but better and all in a package that includes everything and doesn't have to be pieced together.

I agree the R should have just went away at the end of the 17 model year at the latest.

Now this is just different views, I accept that Ford short sightedly only aimed the 350 at the Z/28, so I don't fault it for not beating the ZL1 at anything. That is just me though, you are entitled to your opinion.

And just so everyone is on the same page, Ford did not settle for an off the shelf tire, they had Michelin make the tires specific for the 350

"The Michelin PilotSportCup 2 tires were specifically tailored by Michelin for the GT350R
The high-performance tires — 305/30ZR19 front, 315/30ZR19 rear — have a special compound and tread pattern just for use on the Ford Shelby GT350R Mustang. Pericak says that Ford and Michelin worked on countless variables and changes, mostly concerning things like sidewall stiffness and the exact rubber compound used for the tread. Incidentally, those rear tires are slightly wider than those on a Camaro Z/28; that car packs 305/30ZR19 Pirellis all round."

https://www.automobilemag.com/news/6...t350r-mustang/

Originally Posted by NW-99SS

An argument that shows the ultimate R handling Mustang, finishing behind a base ZL1 on a road course is EXACTLY how I figure the Camaro chassis and leaps and bounds better than the S550 for handling.

Again, not even in the same ZIP code as the ZLE.

So I reiterate - the GT500 is in a seriously tough spot. Attempt to dethrone Mopar on acceleration, or attempt to handle like a ZL1/ZLE...

I agree. The alpha is superior to the S550. It will be very interesting to see what direction they go with the 500.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by newmoon

How do you figure this? Taken from the H2H article it seems to me that the ZL1 straightaway speed kept it on top, not the handling.

"Even a cursory glance at the speed trace (above) should leave you wondering, "How the heck does the GT350R wind up only 70 feet behind the ZL1 at the checkered flag?" The Camaro is dramatically faster on the front straight, grips better around the long, lower-speed Turn 2 and slingshots around the very quick Turn 8 faster than the Shelby. But the Ford catches up in nips and bits—a little here, a little there."

Even Ford knows the Alpha is superior. Why else would they put 305 R comp tires up front for the 1LE competitor the PP2?

It will take more tire every time to compete with an equal model Camaro, and that is due to the alpha and nothing more.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by NW-99SS

The biggest question for the GT500 is where do they focus it's performance?

The 13/14 Trinity was top HP for all domestics, at that point in time. No one else came close aside from a very expensive ZR1 which, while faster, is apples to oranges and still less HP.

Fast forward to Demons, Hellcat Redeye's and ZLEs...

Ford is in one hell of a tough spot IMO. I think it's safe to assume they will have a hard time matching any Demon/Redeye acceleration. I also think it's safe to say the S550 chassis doesn't have handling numbers within ZL1 range, never mind ZLE spec.

So where do they slot this car? Slightly faster than a ZL1, but similar handling or slightly less (I will be pleasantly surprised to see a GT500 handle like a base ZL1, even with a track pack). Or try to compete with Mopar on acceleration and sacrifice some handling making the ZL1/ZLE gap that much more pronounced.

I really hope it's a successful car either way. Tough competition makes for better cars from all manufacturer's...maybe it will push the Camaro team to an LT5 Camaro.

Strictly speaking performance, the entire S550 generation is a fail. That said, this generation has been a tremendous sales success for Ford, and that all that matters to them.

The can release whatever they want in the form of a GT500. It doesnt matter how it performs or doesn't, it WILL sell and Ford knows it. The insane delay on release does make me think they want it to perform like it should though, very excited to see what they offer. I hope it isn't another dud though. The voodoo pretty much stains the GT350 reputation, which sucks as it is also its best feature.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

Even Ford knows the Alpha is superior. Why else would they put 305 R comp tires up front for the 1LE competitor the PP2?

It will take more tire every time to compete with an equal model Camaro, and that is due to the alpha and nothing more.

The same reason the 5th Gen 1LE put squared 285s on the car as compared to the 255s for the GT, and the 6th Gen with 285/305s, as compared to the 255/275 on the GT, an Advantage.

Is this practice only accepted if it is a GM product?

[NW-99SS]

Originally Posted by newmoon

The same reason the 5th Gen 1LE put squared 285s on the car as compared to the 255s for the GT, and the 6th Gen with 285/305s, as compared to the 255/275 on the GT, an Advantage.

Is this practice only accepted if it is a GM product?

Agreed, it makes sense for the 1LE competitors. I hope someone will put the PP2 against the SS 1LE for a direct head-to-head, I'm not interested in bench racing stats from different days (that goes both ways).

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Be honest Camaro faithful, before any real performance numbers were out there on the 6th gen did any of you expect the SS 1LE to almost match the outgoing 75K Z/28?

Its not just the 1LE ~ Z/28. The SS is on par with the gen5 ZL1.

To answer your question, Mark Reuss said it in 2014. One year before the first cars hit the street

Mark Reuss: December 4, 2014

I can tell you that. If you think about Z/28 and ZL1, SS — think about the satisfaction that a ZL1 offers you today off of current Zeta. Think about that satisfaction moved down from an accessibility and model-range standpoint. Think about that. If you like the ZL1 today, you’re going to love the SS tomorrow. Think about that from a philosophical standpoint.

http://www.motortrend.com/news/gm-ma...xt-gen-camaro/

Originally Posted by shaffe

For the most part, the mark up part is out of Ford's control, and to me if they make the car that performs the way we all hope it does and sets an MSRP that is fair/relative to the competition then that is a success in my book. T

BUT I do see what you are saying that for the buyer it would take away value, but that is a free market. As long as their are people willing to shell out extra $$$ stealerships will charge it.

Ford can control supply and that would wipe out the ability for dealerships to gouge after the honeymoon. IMO, Ford likes things exactly as they are because it creates the "special" aspect.