[bob13bob]

Originally Posted by Hops

Well for me, one hot lap isn't a great benchmark, it's just bragging rights. It's much more relevant to a lot of us the have consistent performance over a typical trackday session 20-30min. The lack of charging stations at many tracks disqualifies a performance EV right now.
While tesla's are fast, they seem to be ignoring motorsports. No formulaE, the model-s racing series talked about a couple years ago disappeared. I should mention there has been ring hot laps, the plaid laguna secca lap, and Randy Pobst pikes peak hill climb. But brand for me doesn't have a driving ethos to it.

yeah, tesla needs a better brake car that can last 20-30min tracking. im' sure the new plaid will be able tod o this. charging stations wil lbe added to tracks soon enough.

these are 4 door sedans we're talking about. the roadster wil destory exotics costing 10x it's cost. tesla is not the only one making electric sports cars, all the high performance cars are going that direction.

also, not pushing tesla, i'm pushing bevs make better performance cars.

"my car has better driving ethos" translates to other people have higher performance cars than me but they don't have soul.

[bob13bob]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Sports cars are also supposed to be small, light, and nimble . . . and offer an up-close-and-personal kind of driving involvement. Characteristics that don't exactly scream for an EV solution.

Do you ever drive for the sheer enjoyment of you doing the driving? Do you even know how to?

Norm

who make your opinion on what is a sports car valid? make sure to go out there and correct all those people who drive heavy sports cars, bugattis, chargers, etc.

enjoyment of driving... is like a cruising, which is what i want from a car.
I race mountain bikes, and don't want to turn my car in to a race car. i know the compromises u make to a vehicle. I would go car if i wanted to get good at racing cars.

do you realize how little someone who never pushes the limits of their vehicle to the point of crashing know about being fast? you think having 3500 lbs of metal and cushion between you and the road is a more personal experience? People get good by crashing. I have the scars over my body as my teaching experience. Or do you like to assume you're fast even though you haven't paid in blood and effort to become so?

[arpad_m]

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

How is saying his wife or daughter sexist? Either way, high current is a very tricky thing. The obvious danger of frying you aside, high current can generate some undesirable electric/magnetic field which might not be good for electronics around it. There is also the efficiency issue with charging at higher power, and thermal management. I think we can solve them in time, but I am just saying that batteries that can take high current without apparent negative side effects are just a piece of the whole puzzle.

And speaking of EV1, didn't it actually work pretty well? GM had to scrap it, though, because they can't make money off of it, which is a bit of an issue with EVs nowadays as well.

It's not, but it's also hard to say if it will be hard to say if it's exponential or logistic growth.

Look at mobile phones. 2000 ~ 2010 saw huge changes and the introduction of smartphones that revolutionized the industry, but 2010 ~ 2020 didn't have that huge of a breakthrough. Sure, the cameras got better and phones are a bit faster, but that's hardly as revolutionary as what the first iPhones did. The folding screen phones are not taking off, either, due to their reliability and durability issues.

There is also the issue of how cheap a technology can become. Look at SSD hard drives. The price has come down a lot, true, but now that rate of decrease have been decreasing. As it stands now, it still makes more sense to have a smaller SSD as your system drive while you leave most of your files on a big, cheap HDD if you are more budget-conscious.

I actually wonder how cheap batteries can go, especially if you take the ethically questionable methods of mining the raw material into account

All very good points

Cell phones are now almost the same. We have arrived at practically infinite screen resolution, infinite CPU/GPU power, and people have capitulated and given in to no longer increasing battery lives plus those insane $1k+ prices for top of the line models.

SSDs are actually getting less and less reliable due to multiplying (from 1 to 2, 3 and now 4) voltage levels per cell to reduce costs, hidden by clever tricks in firmware; speed increases are now marginal.

The trajectory is the same with all technologies, EVs will be no exception, and extrapolating early growth levels far into the future is foolhardy.

[Hops]

Originally Posted by bob13bob

"my car has better driving ethos" translates to other people have higher performance cars than me but they don't have soul.

I'm not talking about a soul! i'm talking about literally driving the car. That is the operator processes the inputs the car gives, and the car responding to skilled inputs you to yield the performance it's capable of. Or to put it another way, the car is something you put on as an extension of your limbs to transfer space, vs something that you get in that takes you for a ride.
I wasn't talking about a 'driving ethos' of a particular car but of a manufacture that has very little investment in motorsports.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Number 3

And there is this.

https://www.jns.org/storedot-batteri...ehicle-hurdle/

And at some point when the capacity drops too far for an individual's needs, he's still on the hook for replacing the batteries. Mostly this would hurt those who keep their cars a long time (raises hand) and those who cannot afford to buy new.


Norm

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

And at some point when the capacity drops too far for an individual's needs, he's still on the hook for replacing the batteries. Mostly this would hurt those who keep their cars a long time (raises hand) and those who cannot afford to buy new.


Norm

The specs I’ve been reading are up to 800 charges with 80% capacity remaining. I think this article says 500. So even at 200 mikes, hats 100,000 miles with 80% of he battery left.

You are correct though. If you want to keep a car around 20 years what does that mean for an EV?

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by Number 3

The specs I’ve been reading are up to 800 charges with 80% capacity remaining. I think this article says 500. So even at 200 mikes, hats 100,000 miles with 80% of he battery left.

You are correct though. If you want to keep a car around 20 years what does that mean for an EV?

My whole family has always been a “buy brand new and keep it 10 years and 150,000+ miles” on every car we’ve owned. My first car was a 1985 Regal that my stepdad bought brand new in ‘85 and gave to me when I turned 19 in ‘96. I only got rid of it in ‘97 with 130,000 miles because someone hit me and a broken grille totaled it lol. Otherwise I might still be driving it.

I’ve only had 3 more cars in my life including the Camaro. One I sold with 225,000 miles and the other I’m still driving at 183,000 miles.

I really don’t have any interest in buying a new car - or a new battery - every few years.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Number 3

I think what gets lost here is that for some people driving isn't ONLY about the noise of it or the rumble of it, it's just the actual driving.

Driving is made up of the sounds, the amount of performance being used, your level of physical involvement, and your perceptions associated with your driving. Different people will assign different weights to those things.

For me, enjoying driving has very little to do with what car it is. Yep, a Camaro can handle better or go faster and yes sound nicer than my LaCrosse. But I love driving it and today I very much miss my drive to and from the office. My wife and have on many occasions just got in the car and gone for a drive to nowhere in particular simply because it's a great diversion and we just don't have a lot of places to go.

I get this. Back when I had a day job, the drive home (even in traffic) was frequently the mental CTRL-ALT-DEL reset I needed to leave the office stuff back in the office. And the drive going to the office was always fun . . .

Sound hasn't ever been a major part of driving for me (though I do notice it), and it's not been all that much about how much of my car's performance potential I was using either. Mostly it's been about how it felt to be using however much performance I was using, and what I was actively putting into my driving to get it.

But if you need a rumble and sound (which is fake in a lot of cars these days) to make it enjoyable, then great. But there are a lot of people I know in Teslas that do actually enjoy driving. But for them it's not the rumble that floats their boat it's the technology.

Which really isn't part of driving. Not the driver's own driving, anyway, and anybody who would claim credit for himself that properly belongs to the technology is only kidding himself. At worst, technology can be a significant source of distraction.


Norm

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

And at some point when the capacity drops too far for an individual's needs, he's still on the hook for replacing the batteries. Mostly this would hurt those who keep their cars a long time (raises hand) and those who cannot afford to buy new.


Norm

Originally Posted by Number 3

The specs I’ve been reading are up to 800 charges with 80% capacity remaining. I think this article says 500. So even at 200 mikes, hats 100,000 miles with 80% of he battery left.

You are correct though. If you want to keep a car around 20 years what does that mean for an EV?

I think this aspect will be manufacturer dependent, and I like GM’s approach. The battery is serviceable at a module level. You can remove a bad module, put in a new module and the pack “reconstitutes” itself to integrate the new module. This is possible even if the new module is of a newer, more advanced vintage. The connection between modules is wireless.

For situations where an entire pack has to be replaced, it is on parallel with doing an engine replacement in an ICE car. Probably a bit more expensive. If you figure on battery cost being $100/kWh and you are replacing a battery pack in an 80kWh vehicle, you’re at $8,000 plus labor and markup, so let’s call it $10 - 12k. I’m not aware of what a complete engine replacement costs today, so feel free to chime in. And let’s not use junkyard pick-a-part prices. New or remanufactured. I should also point out, there are battery pack remanufacturers already in the market, so it would still be possible for prices lower than the $10 - 12k I estimated.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Number 3

The specs I’ve been reading are up to 800 charges with 80% capacity remaining. I think this article says 500. So even at 200 mikes, hats 100,000 miles with 80% of he battery left.

You are correct though. If you want to keep a car around 20 years what does that mean for an EV?

Well, on average we have driven each of the new cars we ever bought for a little over 15 years and nearly 150,000 miles. None less than 8 years or 106,000 miles. One of them (1979 Chevy Malibu), a little over 25 years . . .

I'd say that also means we've done a pretty good job of car selection over the years. I've always felt, going into each new car purchase, that I was still going to actively enjoy driving each of those cars years and years out into the future. I don't get that feeling at all with an EV.


Personally, I feel that if you have to try too hard to like something, it's never going to be a good fit for you and would make for a poor purchase decision.


Norm

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

For situations where an entire pack has to be replaced, it is on parallel with doing an engine replacement in an ICE car. Probably a bit more expensive. If you figure on battery cost being $100/kWh and you are replacing a battery pack in an 80kWh vehicle, you’re at $8,000 plus labor and markup, so let’s call it $10 - 12k.

Sounds about right, at least order-of-magnitude-wise.

Even a pick-a-part-sourced engine can ultimately end up costing similar money if you're going to refresh it to like-new condition like you should be doing for a fair comparison (might as well make it better than new at that point). And that's with you doing most of your own assembly work and installation into the car once the machine shop has finished their part. Been there.


Norm

[Hops]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

I think this aspect will be manufacturer dependent, and I like GM’s approach. The battery is serviceable at a module level. You can remove a bad module, put in a new module and the pack “reconstitutes” itself to integrate the new module. This is possible even if the new module is of a newer, more advanced vintage. The connection between modules is wireless.

i've read the ultium is the only one with the wireless battery module management! I do wonder though, if cooling will be an issue with sustained high performance applications.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

My whole family has always been a “buy brand new and keep it 10 years and 150,000+ miles” on every car we’ve owned. My first car was a 1985 Regal that my stepdad bought brand new in ‘85 and gave to me when I turned 19 in ‘96. I only got rid of it in ‘97 with 130,000 miles because someone hit me and a broken grille totaled it lol. Otherwise I might still be driving it.

I’ve only had 3 more cars in my life including the Camaro. One I sold with 225,000 miles and the other I’m still driving at 183,000 miles.

I really don’t have any interest in buying a new car - or a new battery - every few years.

For emissions purpose the battery in an EV is warrantied for 7 years I believe. And if you get a LiIon battery for your current car it’s likely 8 to 10 years before replacement. They are pretty robust.

[bob13bob]

Originally Posted by Number 3

The specs I’ve been reading are up to 800 charges with 80% capacity remaining. I think this article says 500. So even at 200 mikes, hats 100,000 miles with 80% of he battery left.

You are correct though. If you want to keep a car around 20 years what does that mean for an EV?

The newer batteries are even better. That data is older than 2018. Also, with regular charging an less super charger, degradation is a.lot less. The people.with 200k tesla have done aot of supercharger abuse because they have driving jobs. Too much fast charging is much worse for the battery. The fact that people hit 200k with the abuse is impressive

Also,.more range means more miles per cycle. I'm getting the 500 mile ct and that will never die

Bevs are more convenient and the long range ones.will last in ton250k range before needing batteries unless you are 100 super charging. Also, u never have to go to a gas station unless you are doing a road trip.

Bevs are heavy, but the weight and is concentrated at the slammed bottom and polar center of the vehicle making turning feel more nimble and better handling than u would think for their weight. Gm will take some time to figure it out, but I can't wait for a bev camaro. If those amazing gm body guys figure out bevs and purpose build the camaro platform, think dedicated bev alpha platform, it's gonna be better than the ice vette.

Lol, they are putting cold it thrust rockets on the roadster to give it more downforce for faster launches. The next 10 years are going to be amazing for cars. Love or hate tesla, u have to that them for thowing innovation in to the car industry. Look at their giga cast body on youtube, that should make cars more affordable as the rest of industry will be forced to.match