[merlin803]

Originally Posted by MrChrisLS3

Well, if it's true that they improved visibility in this gen, even a little bit over the last, and considering the fuss that was made over that car, then how well it sold, I highly doubt that visibility would be what brings this car down.

I see three, maybe four factors at play here that may explain why this car is "jumping" off the lot like they did in 2010.

First, the Camaro isn't coming off an 8 year hiatus. Add that when the gen 5 was released, it was a home run design that, I'm sorry Ford fans, but it made the Mustang's first attempt at retro just look plain silly.

Second, and along these lines, the Gen 6, while truly a different car, new platform, new power, is still perceived by many, even some on these forums, as an evolution of the car. Again, not like the 'rebirth' the gen 5 was at that time. Add to this that many dealers still have '15's on the lot with heavy incentives attached to them. Then let's factor in that most people that bought a Camaro in '12 or later still probably have 2 to 3 years, if not more, left on their note, and if they went 0 down and 72, are probably still in negative equity.

Third, the current Mustang has a year head start, and yes, this one is a well sorted car. The latest Mustang is a nice car by any standard, looks, interior, performance. No question that Camaro vs Mustang is a more difficult choice for many. Not to mention that Dodge has pretty good pony car out there too. While I believe, as do many people that actually get paid to state their opinion, that the Camaro is far and away the better car, to the general public, that matters less.

And the possible fourth, really more of a question for discussion. Is it possible that GM is shooting themselves in the foot today, in terms of sales, by revealing the 1LE and ZL1 so soon after initial release of the Gen 6? I mean, I know that most of us knew they were coming, eventually, but are they missing some of those "got to have it now" sales? I mean, sure it may stop some from buying a GT350 or 350R, but now they have the '16's on the lots competing not only with discounted '15's, but now definite future product too, talk about a rock and hard place.

Well stated and I would add a fifth reason that there has been zero advertisement for the 6th Gen and the average person doesn't even know there is a new generation.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Memphis43

I don't think it's overpriced for what you get. There's also not much cash on the hood right now either. But I don't think that cash on the hood is going to help propel the Camaro ahead of the mustang either.

The mustang just appeals to more buyers this generation.

Those that have bought a Camaro that are not opposed to the difference in visibility because in their minds there is something that's outweighs that con.

HOWEVER, sales are a direct reflection of how many people DO mind.

So, no, it doesn't render this thread moot.

I think that's a huge, and specific assumption that can't be made with any validity.

Originally Posted by MrChrisLS3

Well, if it's true that they improved visibility in this gen, even a little bit over the last, and considering the fuss that was made over that car, then how well it sold, I highly doubt that visibility would be what brings this car down.

I see three, maybe four factors at play here that may explain why this car is "jumping" off the lot like they did in 2010.

First, the Camaro isn't coming off an 8 year hiatus. Add that when the gen 5 was released, it was a home run design that, I'm sorry Ford fans, but it made the Mustang's first attempt at retro just look plain silly.

Second, and along these lines, the Gen 6, while truly a different car, new platform, new power, is still perceived by many, even some on these forums, as an evolution of the car. Again, not like the 'rebirth' the gen 5 was at that time. Add to this that many dealers still have '15's on the lot with heavy incentives attached to them. Then let's factor in that most people that bought a Camaro in '12 or later still probably have 2 to 3 years, if not more, left on their note, and if they went 0 down and 72, are probably still in negative equity.

Third, the current Mustang has a year head start, and yes, this one is a well sorted car. The latest Mustang is a nice car by any standard, looks, interior, performance. No question that Camaro vs Mustang is a more difficult choice for many. Not to mention that Dodge has pretty good pony car out there too. While I believe, as do many people that actually get paid to state their opinion, that the Camaro is far and away the better car, to the general public, that matters less.

And the possible fourth, really more of a question for discussion. Is it possible that GM is shooting themselves in the foot today, in terms of sales, by revealing the 1LE and ZL1 so soon after initial release of the Gen 6? I mean, I know that most of us knew they were coming, eventually, but are they missing some of those "got to have it now" sales? I mean, sure it may stop some from buying a GT350 or 350R, but now they have the '16's on the lots competing not only with discounted '15's, but now definite future product too, talk about a rock and hard place.

Originally Posted by merlin803

Well stated and I would add a fifth reason that there has been zero advertisement for the 6th Gen and the average person doesn't even know there is a new generation.

You both raise good points.

[Memphis43]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

I think that's a huge, and specific assumption that can't be made with any validity.




You both raise good points.

What I'm saying is that it is not just visibility. But also marketing and strategy.

For example, overseas the mustang just outsold its competition for the first time ever. The Camaro isn't even in the conversation. Why? Because it isn't relevant over there.

Even is Chevy put the Camaro on fleet sales, they would still have to play catchup.

They will close the gap, but they won't pass the mustang.

I know visibility turns a lot of people away a from the Camaro that would otherwise consider it. I know this because I experience it first hand on a monthly basis.

For every person that buys one there are about 2-3 that don't whether it be price, looks, or visibility. Out of those three problems, the number one that comes up is.......visibility.

Believe it or not the last issue is usually price out of the three.

The performance takes care of that.

[merlin803]

Originally Posted by Memphis43

What I'm saying is that it is not just visibility. But also marketing and strategy.

For example, overseas the mustang just outsold its competition for the first time ever. The Camaro isn't even in the conversation. Why? Because it isn't relevant over there.

Even is Chevy put the Camaro on fleet sales, they would still have to play catchup.

They will close the gap, but they won't pass the mustang.

I know visibility turns a lot of people away a from the Camaro that would otherwise consider it. I know this because I experience it first hand on a monthly basis.

For every person that buys one there are about 2-3 that don't whether it be price, looks, or visibility. Out of those three problems, the number one that comes up is.......visibility.

Believe it or not the last issue is usually price out of the three.

The performance takes care of that.

But what the people who argue about the visibility costing sales do not factor in is, how many sales would they lose if they changed the styling to make the visibility better?

Any real data that has been collected has shown that yes, visibility is not great but that people would not want it changed if it negatively impacted the style.

I don't think that there is an argument here about the visibility not being great, I think the argument is with people assuming the visibility is the driving factor of the sales numbers, because it certainly wasn't with the 5th Gen and every review by people who are paid to be experts in reviewing cars has been glowing.

[bballr4567]

Originally Posted by merlin803

But what the people who argue about the visibility costing sales do not factor in is, how many sales would they lose if they changed the styling to make the visibility better?

Any real data that has been collected has shown that yes, visibility is not great but that people would not want it changed if it negatively impacted the style.

I don't think that there is an argument here about the visibility not being great, I think the argument is with people assuming the visibility is the driving factor of the sales numbers, because it certainly wasn't with the 5th Gen and every review by people who are paid to be experts in reviewing cars has been glowing.

That real data was collected from owners of the Camaro already though. Of course they don't want to see the styling changed all that much because they already own one.


Here is the deal, the 6th gen will outsell the 5th gen. Good. It wont come close to catching the Mustang for a multitude of reasons but one of those reasons IS visibility.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by bballr4567

That real data was collected from owners of the Camaro already though. Of course they don't want to see the styling changed all that much because they already own one.

Here is the deal, the 6th gen will outsell the 5th gen. Good. It wont come close to catching the Mustang for a multitude of reasons but one of those reasons IS visibility.

I don't have a problem with that statement. In fact, I think I actually agree to a point.

Just two caveats: 1) Customer input data wasn't collected from just Camaro owners...they aren't as short-sighted as some people around here would suggest. and 2) I'm not sure that outselling the Mustang is an appropriate goal...


On another note,
I wonder then...the Mustang has traditionally outsold the Camaro since the dawn of the rivalry...Camaro, generally, has been the better performer...clearly there's a link....

But last generation...the roles were reversed...so assuming Camaro visibility is turning away droves of would-be buyers...does this mean the last-gen Mustang was just that awful?

[merlin803]

Originally Posted by bballr4567

That real data was collected from owners of the Camaro already though. Of course they don't want to see the styling changed all that much because they already own one.


Here is the deal, the 6th gen will outsell the 5th gen. Good. It wont come close to catching the Mustang for a multitude of reasons but one of those reasons IS visibility.

And if the visibility was awesome but the styling stunk because of it, then that would be reason that it didn't outsell the Mustang.

See what I did there?

Really who cares if it outsells the Mustang? I just want GM to be profitable, and we don't know what that means to them. If they cut down costs because of combining platforms, decided not to lose profits on fleets sales.....we don't know, only GM does.

[SpeedIsLife]

Originally Posted by merlin803

And if the visibility was awesome but the styling stunk because of it, then that would be reason that it didn't outsell the Mustang.

See what I did there?

Really who cares if it outsells the Mustang? I just want GM to be profitable, and we don't know what that means to them. If they cut down costs because of combining platforms, decided not to lose profits on fleets sales.....we don't know, only GM does.

Because people want their car to be the best at everything.

They want it to sell the most, perform the best and have the best quality.

When the 2010 Camaro debuted it's primary rivals were the 2010 Mustang GT (last year of the 4.6 3V, 315 hp 325 tq) and the Challenger R/T (375hp/400 tq). It was the dominant of all three, sold the best, and was the best.

Then in 2011 the 5.0 showed up, and performance wise..things got ugly with the quickness for the Camaro, but it still handily outsold the Mustang and Challenger. That's when the bragging point focus became sales, and it's never really left.

Now we've got the opposite, the Camaro is the performance superior and the Mustang is outselling it..only now people are saying "why does outselling the Mustang matter?"...where in 2010/2011 those same folks were bragging about how the Camaro sold more.

[merlin803]

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

Because people want their car to be the best at everything.

They want it to sell the most, perform the best and have the best quality.

When the 2010 Camaro debuted it's primary rivals were the 2010 Mustang GT (last year of the 4.6 3V, 315 hp 325 tq) and the Challenger R/T (375hp/400 tq). It was the dominant of all three, sold the best, and was the best.

Then in 2011 the 5.0 showed up, and performance wise..things got ugly with the quickness for the Camaro, but it still handily outsold the Mustang and Challenger. That's when the bragging point focus became sales, and it's never really left.

Now we've got the opposite, the Camaro is the performance superior and the Mustang is outselling it..only now people are saying "why does outselling the Mustang matter?"...where in 2010/2011 those same folks were bragging about how the Camaro sold more.

I am sure there were people bragging about sales, but it wasn't me, I just want a great looking and performing car and for GM to be profitable and if those things happen and I get the bonus of not seeing a Camaro on every corner like I do with women driving red mustangs (at least in my area) then I am happy.

[AZCamaroFan]

whether visibility is an issue or not, turning it back into the sales discussion is invalid to me. the premise would be that in december and january ,when there were barely any 6thgens out there, thousands of people went to dealers, sat in them and rejected them and bought mustangs instead. Given that the last generation had no better visibility , and possibly a little worse in front , that's even less likely.

[90503]

Why is it up to just the Camaro to be the savior of GM?....It's not the only car GM offers for sale.

Each model of Chevy, and each model of Cadillac, Buick, and all the rest have their good points and features. It's not up to the Camaro to offer the greatest thing in all possible features, and if the visibility isn't the greatest in the Camaro, the alternative isn't just Mustang....GM has quite a variety. A potential Camaro sales loss due to visibility should be made up by the sale of another GM make.

I hope they keep the Camaro in the performance line-up and unique styling and not in the generic something for everybody line-up, of which there are already dozens of other choices.

Visibility an issue for you in the Camaro? Don't crusade for the demise of the brand to prove your point, go look at another GM model instead. A lot of buyers already like the Camaro as is to buy one. Sales will be just fine.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by 20171LE

How many denial posts like this am I going to have to read on here?


I'VE BEEN A CAMARO OWNER SINCE 1993, I OWN A 2016 CAMARO SS, AND I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THE VISIBILITY AND BLIND SPOTS.
STOP PRETENDING IT'S NOT AN ISSUE AND THAT ONLY CLUELESS TEST DRIVERS HAVE A PROBLEM WITH IT.

Bold, capital letters aren't going to change reality: just because YOU have a problem driving your car, doesn't mean others are lying when they say they do not. This is the reason this thread exists, after all...not everyone agrees on this topic. It does no good to be condescending.

Visibility is compromised by design, yes...but many people experience little to no problems with it.

Originally Posted by AZCamaroFan

whether visibility is an issue or not, turning it back into the sales discussion is invalid to me. the premise would be that in december and january ,when there were barely any 6thgens out there, thousands of people went to dealers, sat in them and rejected them and bought mustangs instead. Given that the last generation had no better visibility , and possibly a little worse in front , that's even less likely.

Originally Posted by 90503

Why is it up to just the Camaro to be the savior of GM?....It's not the only car GM offers for sale.

Each model of Chevy, and each model of Cadillac, Buick, and all the rest have their good points and features. It's not up to the Camaro to offer the greatest thing in all possible features, and if the visibility isn't the greatest in the Camaro, the alternative isn't just Mustang....GM has quite a variety. A potential Camaro sales loss due to visibility should be made up by the sale of another GM make.

I hope they keep the Camaro in the performance line-up and unique styling and not in the generic something for everybody line-up, of which there are already dozens of other choices.

Visibility an issue for you in the Camaro? Don't crusade for the demise of the brand to prove your point, go look at another GM model instead. A lot of buyers already like the Camaro as is to buy one. Sales will be just fine.

X2

[SpeedIsLife]

Originally Posted by 90503

Why is it up to just the Camaro to be the savior of GM?....It's not the only car GM offers for sale.

Each model of Chevy, and each model of Cadillac, Buick, and all the rest have their good points and features. It's not up to the Camaro to offer the greatest thing in all possible features, and if the visibility isn't the greatest in the Camaro, the alternative isn't just Mustang....GM has quite a variety. A potential Camaro sales loss due to visibility should be made up by the sale of another GM make.

I hope they keep the Camaro in the performance line-up and unique styling and not in the generic something for everybody line-up, of which there are already dozens of other choices.

Visibility an issue for you in the Camaro? Don't crusade for the demise of the brand to prove your point, go look at another GM model instead. A lot of buyers already like the Camaro as is to buy one. Sales will be just fine.

If you want another RWD sport coupe in the $30,000-$40,000 range, because that's what you're wanting, what other GM vehicles provide that?

[90503]

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

If you want another RWD sport coupe in the $30,000-$40,000 range, because that's what you're wanting, what other GM vehicles provide that?

Maybe a Chevy SS....? Malibu or Cadillac? Pricing may not be identical, but you'll find something you won't be unhappy to drive.

Or, heaven forbid, if the Camaro is what you really want, just adjust or get used to the visibility if offers....Thousands already have!