[c4racer]

Originally Posted by Crushin_LT1

Well there are ways around that lol

Actually it is a fair point - GM makes a 4cyl version of the Duramax used in the Colorado. That could probably be adapted to the Camaro - the other powerplant in the Colorado is the V6 which is shared with the Camaro / Alpha anyways.

Europe has been moving to clean diesel for many years now and they do have small cars that can get 40-50mpg using that technology, and they don't emit much emissions either. Why wouldn't we take that approach here since it has worked in Europe quite well? EV technology is interesting and for sure should be part of the future in automobiles, but it's not the end all and be all and forcing that because of politics is a rather short sighted way of thinking or maybe a way to grab power. Which I think will fail over time given it just isn't what the majority of Americans want need or financially can deal with.

Just like all these CAFE regulations and targets that get thrown out there and have for years - they eventually get rolled back to deal with the reality of the situation.

[Crushin_LT1]

Originally Posted by c4racer

Actually it is a fair point - GM makes a 4cyl version of the Duramax used in the Colorado. That could probably be adapted to the Camaro - the other powerplant in the Colorado is the V6 which is shared with the Camaro / Alpha anyways.

Europe has been moving to clean diesel for many years now and they do have small cars that can get 40-50mpg using that technology, and they don't emit much emissions either. Why wouldn't we take that approach here since it has worked in Europe quite well? EV technology is interesting and for sure should be part of the future in automobiles, but it's not the end all and be all and forcing that because of politics is a rather short sighted way of thinking or maybe a way to grab power. Which I think will fail over time given it just isn't what the majority of Americans want need or financially can deal with.

Just like all these CAFE regulations and targets that get thrown out there and have for years - they eventually get rolled back to deal with the reality of the situation.

It is all politics, EU focused on diesel because thats what euro companies were making/what EU pols had money invested. Thus their regulations prefer it.


The US is focused on hybrids as thats what US manufacturing and US political interests had money invested.





For anything like this, follow the money and the influence.

[FarmerFran]

Originally Posted by Crushin_LT1

It is all politics, EU focused on diesel because thats what euro companies were making/what EU pols had money invested. Thus their regulations prefer it.


The US is focused on hybrids as thats what US manufacturing and US political interests had money invested.





For anything like this, follow the money and the influence.

Were they not also lying about it? Or was that just here?

[Crushin_LT1]

Originally Posted by FarmerFran

Were they not also lying about it? Or was that just here?

Dieselgate is a separate issue form why the EU focuses on diesels as the future of clean driving and the US focuses on hybrid/EV.


That said, I believe it was all markets.

[UnknownJinX]

Diesel is dead in smaller passenger cars.

The whole issue with it is demonstrated with Dieselgate - you can either get good fuel mileage and power but emit a load of NOx, or you get great emissions at the sacrifice of power and fuel economy. VW ended up cheating with a tune that receives input from steering wheel to switch between these two modes.

https://youtu.be/glHNu91zUdA

Mazda actually tried to figure out how VW made it all work for the longest time. This is before they knew VW cheated, of course. After that, they came out with a CX-5 Skyactiv-D in America that ended up as a big flop - the price is too high, the power is lame(slower than the 2.5G version, and definitely outclassed by the 2.5T), and the fuel economy isn't even that good. About the only thing good is that it can tow a bit more but that's really it.

And EU has been tightening up on old diesels a lot because they emit crap tons of soot, something you don't have to worry about in gasoline engines.

Basically, hybrid does everything diesel does better in smaller passenger cars. It's a dead end.

Sent from toaster or something

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

I have no doubt the time of driving for fun is ending. It's going to happen no matter what kind of motor or engine your car has. That writing has been on the wall for a while now.

That's what they told John DeLorean.

All we need is one new, young DeLorean at one of the big 2.(whoever they are now) with cajones his size..... Al Oppenheiser was that guy until GM neutered him and told him to go to the electric car development.

If he had DeLorean's cajones, he'd be developing the next fully gasoline powered V8 Camaro in his own garage.

[MR2Aaron]

Originally Posted by Hops

What a first post! Did you find the driving experience with an electric car something the wore off over time? I had a Bolt loaner for a couple days, and really thought it was way better than my expectations, but wondered if after a while it wouldn't be exciting.



Years ago, i thought tesla was fighting the good fight over dealer state laws, but now i think they are way worse with right to repair issues(Rich builds), and stories like yours. I've also been thinking people have underestimated repair issues with EV's. An ICE power train is certainty more complicated and needs more repairs, but it's not like that's the only repair issues with cars. Most of the issues i've had with cars in the past are NOT with the powertrain.

The "wow" factor of the electric torque delivery wears off after a while, I guess, but I never really got bored with it in the way some guys do with having "only" 450 horsepower. The convenience factor was huge, though. You drive the car into your garage and plug it in, and pretty much never have to stop to refuel it otherwise. Never having to stop for gas was really nice.

You obviously have to do fast charging when you're away from home, but in a year and a half with it, I only had to do that a handful of times. Most of the time, it was quite pleasant, once I trained myself to just cruise at approximately the speed limit and stop to charge when it said too. The real drag was if you wanted to do that at off hours or a holiday, and I'd get to the charging station and the restaurant (there's usually a restaurant of some kind) would be closed. This is something I think will change once there are more than just Tesla EVs on the road.

And, you're right about everything else. Once you get past the battery and motor, a Tesla isn't really that different from any other car, other than that you have to jump through some goofy hoops to buy parts when you need them.

[FarmerFran]

Originally Posted by MR2Aaron

The "wow" factor of the electric torque delivery wears off after a while, I guess, but I never really got bored with it in the way some guys do with having "only" 450 horsepower. The convenience factor was huge, though. You drive the car into your garage and plug it in, and pretty much never have to stop to refuel it otherwise. Never having to stop for gas was really nice.

You obviously have to do fast charging when you're away from home, but in a year and a half with it, I only had to do that a handful of times. Most of the time, it was quite pleasant, once I trained myself to just cruise at approximately the speed limit and stop to charge when it said too. The real drag was if you wanted to do that at off hours or a holiday, and I'd get to the charging station and the restaurant (there's usually a restaurant of some kind) would be closed. This is something I think will change once there are more than just Tesla EVs on the road.

And, you're right about everything else. Once you get past the battery and motor, a Tesla isn't really that different from any other car, other than that you have to jump through some goofy hoops to buy parts when you need them.

What did the update do to piss you off enough to sell it? Serious question.

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

That's what they told John DeLorean.



All we need is one new, young DeLorean at one of the big 2.(whoever they are now) with cajones his size..... Al Oppenheiser was that guy until GM neutered him and told him to go to the electric car development.



If he had DeLorean's cajones, he'd be developing the next fully gasoline powered V8 Camaro in his own garage.

I mean, it's definitely a cult classic, but how did DMC as a business end?

You shot yourself in the foot with this argument.

You ever heard the theory that if you give a car company to car guys to run, they'd be out of business in weeks? There is some truth behind that.

Sent from toaster or something

[FarmerFran]

Originally Posted by Crushin_LT1

Dieselgate is a separate issue form why the EU focuses on diesels as the future of clean driving and the US focuses on hybrid/EV.


That said, I believe it was all markets.

Fair enough but you cannot go "hey look this is great, and we should all do it" then find out it was a hoax.

My issue with diesels and yes my company makes some awesome particulate filters. But just like gas emissions diesels has its own demons!

[MR2Aaron]

Originally Posted by FarmerFran

What did the update do to piss you off enough to sell it? Serious question.

Hoo boy, grab a Snickers, man...

Imagine if someone snuck into your garage at night, and rearranged all the controls in your car. Suddenly, the temperature and radio controls are in a different spot, the speedometer and other gauges are now smaller and harder to read, buttons you used to use for stuff like cruise control just aren't there anymore, and forth. Imagine they did this with every. single. button. Most of them are still there somewhere, but you have to go looking for them now. Oh, and they're all just touchscreen buttons, so there's no doing this by feel, either. You have to take your eyes off the road and look.

Now also imagine that, in the process of doing all this, the usable part of the ICE screen is now 20% smaller.

Finally, imagine that the reason they did all this was to try to push you into buying (very expensive) extra features of the car that don't really work as advertised, but with the promise that actual functionality is "coming soon."

They made a ton of rookie mistakes too, like resizing dialog boxes in a way where the labels on some controls now overflow, so you can't read the first or last words.

That's what they did, and they did it in a really half-assed manner, and were kind of rude to me when I complained, and asked politely if I could just have the old arrangement back for a while. A month later, basically none of it has been fixed, and I was told by their customer service that they had an unusually high number of complaints about it, so it's not like I'm the only who felt that way. I am a software developer by profession, and I can see all the places where they cut corners to rush that garbage out by Christmas, and I found it pretty insulting that they expected me to ride in a machine that is controlled by a program with as many obvious mistakes as they left in there. Who knows what else was in there that I couldn't see.

I probably sound like a petulant child, but I agonized over it for weeks before eventually deciding that if it upset me that much, I should just get rid of that car and get one that doesn't make me lose sleep at night.

[Hops]

Originally Posted by MR2Aaron

You drive the car into your garage and plug it in, and pretty much never have to stop to refuel it otherwise. Never having to stop for gas was really nice.

I think this a really big point. I'm a typical commuting driver doing 12000mi a year, getting gas once a week, spending 15min to do so since it's a little off my route to work. That 15min for 48weeks a year is 12hrs! In 3.5 years i would have spent an entire work week just getting gas!

[FarmerFran]

Originally Posted by Hops

I think this a really big point. I'm a typical commuting driver doing 12000mi a year, getting gas once a week, spending 15min to do so since it's a little off my route to work. That 15min for 48weeks a year is 12hrs! In 3.5 years i would have spent an entire work week just getting gas!

Man, what ever you do, do not start thinking about how much a waste of time eating, sleeping and showing are...

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

That's what they told John DeLorean.

All we need is one new, young DeLorean at one of the big 2.(whoever they are now) with cajones his size..... Al Oppenheiser was that guy until GM neutered him and told him to go to the electric car development.

If he had DeLorean's cajones, he'd be developing the next fully gasoline powered V8 Camaro in his own garage.

Ummmm that’s not how it works.

Al should have told his boss, “FU and my career, I’m staying with Camaro”. “And to top it off you need to give me $500,000,000 to do a next gen version of a car selling 3rd in its class and dropping”. Or else what? He would quit? So going from what got him more money and visibility in his career to threatening to quit if they don’t approve a new Camaro?

Thanks for my chuckle today. Enjoyed that.