[Ragnar]

Originally Posted by Thor142

But it wasn't on just 2000 unit's. The Z was a parts bin car like almost everything else they build. There is actually a possibility they built it pretty cheap. I mean Zeta was paid for eons ago, the LS7 was ready for the bone yard and I bet they had a few units kicking around with not much into them. Throw on some expensive shocks and the brakes from the recently departed ZR1 and bam!
Just a thought. Building cars from parts bins is what GM does best.

^^^This with this below.

I remember way back when the Gen 5 Z28 was coming out that they mentioned that the carbon ceramic brake rotors developed for the Z28, were also to be used on the upcoming C7 Z06. It is interesting that the size of the Z28 and C7 Z06 rotors are 15.5" on the front (ZR1 also) and 15.3" on the rear (ZR1 was 15").

[Thor142]

Originally Posted by oldman

The Type R is basically an Integra with no sunroof with a port and polish head from their racing department based on the Civic SI, brakes off an accord. Parts bin.

OK so they took parts off cars that cost arpound 20K and put together a car that lost 20K per unit? Something isn't adding up there.

[SpeedIsLife]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

Where'd you see that? All the articles show early March 2016 as the date it hit. Not that I wouldn't believe it. I believe Ford is gearing up for CAFE at a faster rate which could drive a shorter generation.

http://www.mustang6g.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46339

If you open the document in question, you'll see it's dated June 2015.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

Because Ford didn't use as expensive equipment as GM did. It's very simple...

See below

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

I disagree. The Z/28 used an existing platform. The GT350R's is one off. The Z/28 used the LS7, which was from another car. The 5.2 Voodoo is unique. Sure, the Magneride is not as expensive as the DSSVs and the brakes aren't CCBs but I'm sure the carbon wheels aren't cheap.

Also everything forward of the A-pillar to the GT350 is unique to the car. Now I will say that Ford offering more models of the GT350 is part of the reason they are able to offer it for less, but to just say the Z/28 used more unique and expensive materials I would have to say that is false.

[TheSpectre]

Originally Posted by mkorgan

Not at all. This discussion is fruitless. Marketing of Air Jordan's sold NIKE shoe in general, many....many more than Air Jordan's specifically. Tiger Wood's sold NIKE golfing products, not just the high end clubs he would use. The list goes on and on. The MARKETING around the Z/28 sold the Camaro, not specifically the Z/28. The Z/28 was not accessible to most and not available to many others. The marketing of the Z/28 started well before the car was released, same with the ZL1. Both halo car's by the #'s compared to the SS and base model Camaro. YET, GM has steadfastly attested to their contribution to the sales of the entire Camaro line and the Q rating is just ONE WAY of affirming that while the halo car's sales may have not been great in the eyes of the public, to GM they were marketing GOLD.

GM would not be doubling down on a product that failed and if the video's tell us anything...that is exactly what they are doing. I know most you could care less about the analytics associated to product marketing and can't see past EBAY or the showroom floor but GM and others in the industry understand the benefit of a high end product that few can afford but many will admire and thus buy in at a lower level. This again is basic marketing, show and demonstrate the best, sell the basic to mid level @ volume.

I think this argument has run its course. Those who believe it was a mistake will never accept the premise and those of us that accept and understand why the Z/28 was built will never be able to get those cars off ebay to convince you otherwise.

Ok, I've done nothing but politely ask you questions to explain your own position, and now you appear to be backed in a corner and cannot find your way out, so you patronize me?

Spare me the marketing BS now. The Z/28 tanked. CAMARO sales have not improved AT ALL even with this mythical Q rating (that you continually refuse to source) bump that you claim the Z28 provided, therefore your assertion that it has helped the brand is complete and utter garbage.

If you're the expert you say you are, you will disprove the above and you'll do it with evidence.

If you don't respond or say it's not worth your time, you'll have made it clear that you are fraudulent.

Originally Posted by mkorgan

Still waiting on imperial evidence that points to this car being overpriced for the purpose it was designed. Inventory does not speak to value or price. Inventory speak to supply and demand. Damn, man...basics. Just because the demand does not meet or exceed supply does not mean the product is overpriced or overvalued. If GM misjudged the track market from a retail sales perspective, that is a different argument which I will not disagree with. However, my challenge still it there for you should you wish to accept it.

Explain to me how you would have delivered a car that car do what this car does, provides what this car provides, and done it significantly cheaper. That is what I want from you. Give me a better value for this purpose built Camaro Z/28 OR how you would have delivered a car with capabilities at a significantly lower price. Let me help you so we can move on....you can't.

If you are not a track rat, you will not understand the Z/28 and that is fine. Guess what...it wasn't built for you so get over it.

What a piece of work you are. You won't give me the empirical data I ask you for, and you rip someone else when he won't give you the data you ask for?

Come on. Be consistent. Be factual.

[SpeedIsLife]

Ford used just as expensive equipment, just different choices. They tested the GT350 with CCB's (as seen on shots of the GT350 prototypes running the ring) but didn't go with them for production.

The carbon fiber wheels are something like $3,000 each retail, so probably around $2,000 cost..that's $8,000 right there..roughly what CCB's would be on a GT350.

So, instead of going with CCB's to enhance braking and lower weight..they went with the CF wheels to achieve roughly the same results with conventional brakes.

[mkorgan]

Originally Posted by TheSpectre

Ok, I've done nothing but politely ask you questions to explain your own position, and now you appear to be backed in a corner and cannot find your way out, so you patronize me?

Spare me the marketing BS now. The Z/28 tanked. CAMARO sales have not improved AT ALL even with this mythical Q rating (that you continually refuse to source) bump that you claim the Z28 provided, therefore your assertion that it has helped the brand is complete and utter garbage.

If you're the expert you say you are, you will disprove the above and you'll do it with evidence.

If you don't respond or say it's not worth your time, you'll have made it clear that you are fraudulent.


What a piece of work you are. You won't give me the empirical data I ask you for, and you rip someone else when he won't give you the data you ask for?

Come on. Be consistent. Be factual.

Did you not see the evidence of costs associated with building the Z/28 in this same thread? I priced out the cost of the major components in the Z/28 to explain that the car is actually priced extremely well for what you get. I am consistent. I am factual. I have given Thor and now you the opportunity to show how you or anyone else can provide equivalent performance at a lower cost and all you do is say "they did not sell them all" which is a completely different market concept called Supply and Demand -vs- Market Valuation. I don't expect you to understand. What I expect is your willingness to say you don't understand OR be silent. Either way, the more you cobble together these incoherent responses without actually addressing the core issue on the table, the more you show yourself as a contrarian regardless of what evidence is put before you. In your world, the sky is green because you want it to be green. That's cool. You would be wrong...but that's cool. And in regards to "mythical"...please educate yourself. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_Score

Q Ratings of companies are highly held intellectual property and are not generally publically available. However, being in the industry for over 20 years and knowing those that have access to these score provides me a unique view of how marketing campaigns, products, and customer relations affects these scores. GM's score has been steadily increasing and Camaro's leaped double digits in the 2012-2014 timeframe. Call me a liar. I could not care less but for those that have the ability to understand more than what they see....the Z/28 was a huge success for GM and if it competes at the same or higher level, another Z/28 (costing more) would most likely continue to build on the success of the previous model. Thus GM is doing what makes sense in the market, if not in your head.

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

Ford used just as expensive equipment, just different choices. They tested the GT350 with CCB's (as seen on shots of the GT350 prototypes running the ring) but didn't go with them for production.

The carbon fiber wheels are something like $3,000 each retail, so probably around $2,000 cost..that's $8,000 right there..roughly what CCB's would be on a GT350.

So, instead of going with CCB's to enhance braking and lower weight..they went with the CF wheels to achieve roughly the same results with conventional brakes.

The price spread between the TP and R suggests that it cost less than that. Or Ford is losing money on each GT350R sale. My guess Ford got a special deal on the wheels since they were planning on using them with the Ford GT as well. Or they got a deal simply because they put that manufacturer on the map after announcing it (i.e. marketing).

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

[TheSpectre]

Originally Posted by mkorgan

Did you not see the evidence of costs associated with building the Z/28 in this same thread? I priced out the cost of the major components in the Z/28 to explain that the car is actually priced extremely well for what you get. I am consistent. I am factual. I have given Thor and now you the opportunity to show how you or anyone else can provide equivalent performance at a lower cost and all you do is say "they did not sell them all" which is a completely different market concept called Supply and Demand -vs- Market Valuation. I don't expect you to understand. What I expect is your willingness to say you don't understand OR be silent. Either way, the more you cobble together these incoherent responses without actually addressing the core issue on the table, the more you show yourself as a contrarian regardless of what evidence is put before you. In your world, the sky is green because you want it to be green. That's cool. You would be wrong...but that's cool. And in regards to "mythical"...please educate yourself. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_Score

Q Ratings of companies are highly held intellectual property and are not generally publically available. However, being in the industry for over 20 years and knowing those that have access to these score provides me a unique view of how marketing campaigns, products, and customer relations affects these scores. GM's score has been steadily increasing and Camaro's leaped double digits in the 2012-2014 timeframe. Call me a liar. I could not care less but for those that have the ability to understand more than what they see....the Z/28 was a huge success for GM and if it competes at the same or higher level, another Z/28 (costing more) would most likely continue to build on the success of the previous model. Thus GM is doing what makes sense in the market, if not in your head.

You want to educate? Step 1 is to quote a real source, not Wikipedia.

I know what I don't know, hence why I'm asking the questions. You're doing nothing to answer them put spin your little head around, while managing to be downright condescending.

I'm not trying to be contrarian. I don't care about how well/poorly the Z28 did or does. I am trying to understand why, as you claim, an increase in Q rating for the Camaro brand makes a difference if it doesn't translate in increased sales.

I question your credentials since you seem so unwilling or unable to explain your statements.

[SpeedIsLife]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

The price spread between the TP and R suggests that it cost less than that. Or Ford is losing money on each GT350R sale. My guess Ford got a special deal on the wheels since they were planning on using them with the Ford GT as well. Or they got a deal simply because they put that manufacturer on the map after announcing it (i.e. marketing).

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

They're either losing money on each R or they got a super screaming deal, yes.

[mkorgan]

Originally Posted by TheSpectre

You want to educate? Step 1 is to quote a real source, not Wikipedia.

I know what I don't know, hence why I'm asking the questions. You're doing nothing to answer them put spin your little head around, while managing to be downright condescending.

I'm not trying to be contrarian. I don't care about how well/poorly the Z28 did or does. I am trying to understand why, as you claim, an increase in Q rating for the Camaro brand makes a difference if it doesn't translate in increased sales.

I question your credentials since you seem so unwilling or unable to explain your statements.

Unlike many, I do not have unlimited time to argue this so I am shutting my responses down as I have made my point and a refusal to accept them is not my problem. From the support I have received on this thread, it is clear to me that I have provided multiple justifications for the car being a tremendous value. I provided the Wiki link because I figured it was the most concise data on Q Scores for those that have never heard of them. However, if you would like to actually dive into the actual way the data is derived, please....by all means...here is the actual site..... http://www.qscores.com/Web/default.aspx . This can answer your questions directly from the source.

I am growing weary of this conversation as it seems no amount of evidence (whether it be VIR times, retail price to build, or Q rating data) will change the mind of those who are bitter that GM built the Z/28 the way they did in the Gen5 Camaro. I for one (with a few others) get it and are happy to see GM continuing to build on a good thing. And with that, I am done. Thanks for the participation.

[hotlap]

The ultimate evidence as to whether or not GM was disappointed with the gen5 Z/28 will be the gen6 Z/28. If it is a similarly high cost, track focused car it will be clear they felt they got what they wanted from the program. Reuss has already hinted (below).

Regarding cost, some need to accept the Z/28 wasn't built for them. Camaro has surrendered the mullet demographic to Mustang

...it still needs to be a wicked fast track car more capable maybe than the comfort- and driver-oriented models.”

Read more: http://gmauthority.com/blog/2015/06/...#ixzz49l87sK3F

[Thor142]

Originally Posted by mkorgan

Did you not see the evidence of costs associated with building the Z/28 in this same thread? I priced out the cost of the major components in the Z/28 to explain that the car is actually priced extremely well for what you get. I am consistent. I am factual. I have given Thor and now you the opportunity to show how you or anyone else can provide equivalent performance at a lower cost and all you do is say "they did not sell them all" which is a completely different market concept called Supply and Demand -vs- Market Valuation. I don't expect you to understand. What I expect is your willingness to say you don't understand OR be silent. Either way, the more you cobble together these incoherent responses without actually addressing the core issue on the table, the more you show yourself as a contrarian regardless of what evidence is put before you. In your world, the sky is green because you want it to be green. That's cool. You would be wrong...but that's cool. And in regards to "mythical"...please educate yourself. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_Score

.

No you listed components at MSRP. If you are trying to tell us that the Z/28 is a value if you were to try and build one yourself out of components purchased at MSRP then fine. You have a point. However being the marketing guru you claim to be you know that MSRP most often contains a 50% profit margin. I think your Q rating is dropping.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Regarding cost, some need to accept the Z/28 wasn't built for them. Camaro has surrendered the mullet demographic to Mustang

This. X 100,000,000

I'll be honest, I had to come to terms with this myself. I wanted nothing more than to drive a new Camaro with the Z/28 badge on it. But I did not want, nor could I reasonably afford the 5th-gen Z/28. It's awesome. It's a performance bargain. But It's not for me.