[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

1) I think his car runs 11.3's.

2) It would run 9's with a Whipple.

3) looking forward to your low 9 second slip.

It won't run 9s that easily. You know, everyone always thinks it's just soo easy to run 9s. Like you just slap a blower on a car that is running low 11s and it'll hit 9s no questions asked. If it was that easy, then where are all the 9 sec Mustangs at?

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by TRZ06

I am not excusing Ford or justifying what they did, but you have to remember that this concept of Manufactures churning out track cars off the showroom floor is a very new concept, unless you get into the exotic brands.

GM just started it with the 1LE basically. In the past , it was unheard of for main stream manufactures to spit out a track car that did not need additional aftermarket stuff to make a track worthy, let alone warranty it for that type of use.

Ford is just still playing catch up in that regard, the old GM was the same way, they handicapped their performance cars in the past too.

This is just a new market niche and they are all trying to find their way. GM is leading the charge, Ford is following, albeit, more slowly and reluctantly.

Your point is well taken but two things:

1. The track readiness didn't start with the 1LE (2017), it came with the base SS and correctly optioned base models (2016). People seem to forget that the regular old non-1LE SS has all the coolers and 4-piston Brembos, etc. to track all day long straight from the factory. You don't need the 1LE (which folks are calling the track package) option package to track a 6th Gen Camaro.

2. Ford isn't really playing catch up here, they COULD make a track capable GT by simply adding coolers. The Boss 302 was track capable without overheating. But the confusion comes in when they put tires on the car that really only have benefits on the track (and don't grip that well on the street), then don't add the necessary coolers. The car isn't really optimized for street use, and it can't go on the track without heat issues. It's like Jeep offering an off-road package with the best off-road tires, and then telling you you can't take it off road because it will overheat.

[J_MaherAMG]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

Your point is well taken but two things:

1. The track readiness didn't start with the 1LE (2017), it came with the base SS and correctly optioned base models (2016). People seem to forget that the regular old non-1LE SS has all the coolers and 4-piston Brembos, etc. to track all day long straight from the factory. You don't need the 1LE (which folks are calling the track package) option package to track a 6th Gen Camaro.

2. Ford isn't really playing catch up here, they COULD make a track capable GT by simply adding coolers. The Boss 302 was track capable without overheating. But the confusion comes in when they put tires on the car that really only have benefits on the track (and don't grip that well on the street), then don't add the necessary coolers. The car isn't really optimized for street use, and it can't go on the track without heat issues. It's like Jeep offering an off-road package with the best off-road tires, and then telling you you can't take it off road because it will overheat.

Everything you said is accurate besides the bold part. My R came with SC2's of course, and when I wore them out I replaced them with Super Sports for longevity (no tracks in my province). But the Cup 2's had FAR more grip in them. Anyone who states that they can't get them up to temperature on the street have either never owned them or are using them in single digits temperatures (celcius). On days where the temps were over 20*C, just from normal driving after 20 mins or so the tires were hot to touch. Small rocks would literally melt into the rubber they were that hot and "gooey". Literally the only downside to having SC2's on the street is how quickly they wear out, and how they throw up everything on the road at your paint. I have full PPF so that last one didn't apply to me thankfully!

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

15-16 base/tech cars going into limp mode was easy explicable...they had no coolers and Ford offered 2 options with coolers.

while I agree the PP2 going into limp mode is inexcusable mainly because they outfitted it with R comps. Do you have any press release info from Ford where they claim it was a track car? Or is that internet fanfare your speaking of?

Your assertion that Ford reasoning was warranty driven is not founded in reality as Ford will warranty a car on track when not under competitive circumstances.

Ford says the PP2 and 16 GT350 are not track capable.

1) You take it to the track anyway and it repeatedly logs over temp, limp mode.
2) You modify the car to add coolers and make it what Ford says it is not. Track capable.

Good luck with either scenario if your engine, transmission or differential fails.

[FastCarFanBoy]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

It won't run 9s that easily. You know, everyone always thinks it's just soo easy to run 9s. Like you just slap a blower on a car that is running low 11s and it'll hit 9s no questions asked. If it was that easy, then where are all the 9 sec Mustangs at?

Well... there's one in my garage, my friend sold his 9.5x vortech 2012 two years ago, his brother had a low 10sec nitrous 2012 and then there are god knows how many on youtube and on forum fast lists. Now if you want to narrow it down to S550's there are 15 FI on the Mg6 fast list alone and plenty more on youtube.

If you want to narrow it down further to just 2018 whipple cars , well Whipple just started shipping a month or two ago. look it will take a good tire(not an NT05R), possibly half shafts although i'm sure its possible on stock ones, a good tune, headers or cat deletes, E85 although it should be doable on a 100+pump tune and maybe seats pulled.

FWIW a 2018 has gone 8.70@161 on a turbo already with stock motor and A10...8000rpm shifts.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

In Ford's defense tho, it seems that they were not trying to make a track car out of the PP2. It seems that they wanted to make a car that could handle the track well while coming in cheaper than the standard GT350 and having enough of them available that there wouldn't be any markups. So in a way, it might really be a success. If it does hang with the SS 1LE even for 1 or 2 laps, then some aftermarket coolers would legit give you GT350 level performance. Or close to it, very close to it...even if it won't be close in the quarter mile. Think about it. Some people wanted Shelby performance without all the hoopla surrounding it. Ford found a way to deliver that. Most of these people don't care to go to the track but they do want to hit corners while DDing or on the weekends with their friends on twisty roads and such. For those people this is a win.

Dude would you just stop with the 350 and the 1/4 mile LOL. It's becoming a pet peeve of mine everytime I see you mention the 350 and the 1/4 mile lol.

Originally Posted by hotlap

No - 2013 GT500
No - 2016 GT350
No - 2018 PP2

Yes - Turbo 4 1LE
Yes - V6 1LE
Yes - 1SS and 2SS
Yes - 1SS 1LE and 2SS 1LE
Yes - ZL1
Yes - ZL1 1LE

Only 1 I will argue is the 13 GT500. There was 1 article, the MT one where the 500 had brake fade/heat. IIRC None of the other reviews mentioned brake fade/heat. So we are to take that one article as gospel then? If that's the case then we need to take the Z06 overheating in the MT best drivers car test as gospel as well and all Z06's can't track either.

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

what's your point exactly? Are you disagreeing with MartinJlm and saying track capable is synonymous with track car?

For me you have DD oriented cars that are "capable" of being tracked ala SS and then you have cars designed primarily for track prowess that can be driven on the street ala Z28, ZL1LE, 350R

the 911 is trackable , the GT3RS is a track car.

This thread is so far off track its getting surreal. If a convertible SS is a track car to you I have no problem with it , but if it is why can't it be ordered with the 1LE package?

You have been fighting a losing battle lol, but to clarify

I would say base SS track capable, 1LE Track car.

Originally Posted by hotlap

This is a vs 2018 Mustang thread and the conversation since the PP2’s R&T outing has been to contrast the two companies approach to performance.

Chevy’s standard is that any Camaro with performance intent can withstand its owner taking it to a HPDE or drag racing. The cars are warranted for it.

The PP2 going into limp mode is inexplicable. As was the 16 GT350. Customers are paying $50k for a car that Ford deliberately knee capped to avoid warranty exposure. Cars that were rolled out with a lot of fanfare as track cars.

The PP2 diff overheating is not a good look. Whether Ford intended it to be track capable or not that is a BAD look no matter what side you fall on. Now if all the other mags have 0 issues is that an outlier? There were some posts on the other sites about guys with the pp2's tracking them and 0 issues so guess we need to wait an see. Either way, that is a bad look for Ford for the first printed test to have the car get heated.

And major props to GM to making sure all of their performance models are up to the task

Ford only does that on Ford Performance vehicles(Raptor, 17+ GT350, ST line, RS)

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

A lot of truth in this post. A good number of us (self included) are blaming Ford for not reacting quickly and in the same manner as GM wrt track cars. That coulda be over-reacting. As TRZ06 points out, this is a fairly new frontier, at least the way it is playing out now.

I think my bigger disappointment with Ford is that the inclusion of the track spec tires indicates that they were likely thinking about making the car more suitable for track. I wish they had changed the tires at the point they decided not do add coolers. I’ll admit I may be way to singular in focus on this. But I can say I would be pi$$ed if I wanted a PP2 and had to go with expensive tires that have substandard wear and weather characteristics for the modes in which I would be forced to operate the vehicle. If people who buy the car are okay with that, then fine, and I’ll stand down.

This ^ I mean, yeah a good chunk of the PP2 cars will never see the track, but they went so far and then just said eh. They should have at least made coolers an option IMO.

[FastCarFanBoy]

Originally Posted by hotlap

1) You take it to the track anyway and it repeatedly logs over temp, limp mode.
2) You modify the car to add coolers and make it what Ford says it is not. Track capable.

Good luck with either scenario if your engine, transmission or differential fails.

1) Limp mode is there to protect the components so I dont know how triggering those would give a company grounds to void a warranty...Does that apply to early A8 ZO6's?

2) I don't know of any manufacturer that will warranty a modified car or is legally obligated to.

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

1) Limp mode is there to protect the components so I dont know how triggering those would give a company grounds to void a warranty...Does that apply to early A8 ZO6's?

2) I don't know of any manufacturer that will warranty a modified car or is legally obligated to.

With respect to #2, I don't think adding coolers to your car will void the warranty. From what I understand, Ford (in this example) would have to be able to prove that the mod was responsible for the failure of the car. I can't see how adding additional cooling could ever be used as something that caused a failure in the car (assuming that the coolers and lines didn't leak fluids, which damaged the car).

So, I wouldn't be too worried about a voided warranty due to adding some coolers.

[DevilsReject97]

Originally Posted by Zeke.Malvo

The A10 has essentially the same gearing as the A8 up to about 100mph. The A10 has an extra gear smashed in at about 100-120, and an extra overdrive. That's it.

The A10 will help MAYBE .05 seconds at most.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

7.39 ratio spread and faster upshifts
The new 10-speed’s greater overall performance and efficiency are due primarily to its wider 7.39 overall gear ratio spread, which enhances off-the-line performance with a more aggressive first gear ratio than GM’s eight-speed automatic. Smaller steps between the gears also help the engine maintain the optimal speed for maximum power at almost all speeds, especially when exiting a corner on a track.

One of the primary reasons the GT has looked so good on video is because they seem to launch so much better than in years past. I would argue that the A10 is helping them do just that. I fully expect the Camaro to benefit from the very same.

I'd also like to point to this...the A8 already has the Camaro running a 4.1 in the 0-60. If the A10 makes the GT a sub 4 second car, that means the Camaro will more than likely do so as well.

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

2) the 15-16 TP/R or any 17+ GT350 will match or beat the 1LE

I'll give you that it will probably match, and somewhat beat the 1LE times. It should however, given the cost of the car. That being said, if the single most expensive Mustang you can buy, can barely beat a mid-level Camaro SS, that's nothing I'd want to brag about.

VIR:
Camaro 1LE - 2:54.8
GT350R - 2:51.8

Willow Springs:
1:28.29 for both cars

Motortrend's Figure 8:
1LE - 22.9
GT350R - 23.30

Originally Posted by newmoon

This they are capable track performers but the last true track Camaro was the Z28 a car purposely built to handle the rigors of track duty competition again and again and again, maybe the ZL1-1LE may fall into this as well. Much like the GT350R. Sure the ZL1 and 1LE can lay down significant lap times, can they do it all day, day after day, is the engine and entire drivetrain built to handle this abuse as its main venue. Tests show the 1LE capable of laying a better lap than the 5th Gen Z28, in a prolonged session how long until that Z28 overtakes the 1LE?

Did you miss the part about how when they designed the base SS for the 6th gen model, that all of the 1LE tech went into it? Or how they took some of the things they learned with the Z28 and put it into the SS? The base SS was essentially a 1LE car if you compared it with the outgoing 5th gen.

Any car, even a track purpose car, can fail after a single lap. Would I say that any car straight off a showroom floor be able to perform flawlessly? No, I would not. That being said, GM specifically warranties the car in stock form for track use. Which means, unless I'm understanding it incorrectly, that the car is built to handle the abuse if driven correctly. I mean, you can overcook any level of brake pad/rotor simply by overdriving the car. Won't matter whether their on a Yugo or a Ferrari.

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

It’s hard to nail down but I would lean toward cars built with street manners and creature comforts having been sacrificed in the name of maximizing track performance. The Z28, ZL1LE, Z06-07, 350R would fall into my definition. The SS and ZL1 to me are modern muscle cars that are track capable.

I would agree with this statement very much so. While I do fully believe we've entered a new age where power/technology has allowed us to overcome weight to get speeds, the simple truth is that most true track cars have cages, and very limited creature comforts.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

With respect to #2, I don't think adding coolers to your car will void the warranty. From what I understand, Ford (in this example) would have to be able to prove that the mod was responsible for the failure of the car. I can't see how adding additional cooling could ever be used as something that caused a failure in the car (assuming that the coolers and lines didn't leak fluids, which damaged the car).

So, I wouldn't be too worried about a voided warranty due to adding some coolers.

Ford says it is not track capable. I.e. not intended for, or sold for track use. Scenario 1 ignores it. Scenario 2 overrides it.

where does that leave the owner in either scenario?

[Mountain]

Originally Posted by shaffe

1. Only 1 I will argue is the 13 GT500. There was 1 article, the MT one where the 500 had brake fade/heat. IIRC None of the other reviews mentioned brake fade/heat. So we are to take that one article as gospel then? If that's the case then we need to take the Z06 overheating in the MT best drivers car test as gospel as well and all Z06's can't track either.


2. The PP2 diff overheating is not a good look. Whether Ford intended it to be track capable or not that is a BAD look no matter what side you fall on. Now if all the other mags have 0 issues is that an outlier? There were some posts on the other sites about guys with the pp2's tracking them and 0 issues so guess we need to wait an see. Either way, that is a bad look for Ford for the first printed test to have the car get heated.

3. And major props to GM to making sure all of their performance models are up to the task.

Ford only does that on Ford Performance vehicles(Raptor, 17+ GT350, ST line, RS)


4. This ^ I mean, yeah a good chunk of the PP2 cars will never see the track, but they went so far and then just said eh. They should have at least made coolers an option IMO.

1. From what I recall (I may need to look back), but the brake fade everyone talks about with the '13 GT500 TP is only a minor comment and likely one that would be cured with a performance DOT-4 brake fluid. Under hard tracking, due to the large displacement engine, positive displacement supercharger, the car does get toasty after hard tracking. Good point, too, on the Z06 example.

2. Well, for one, non-PP cars and PP1 cars a like have overheating issues. In addition, there are also people with the PP2 having overheating issues. So, it will not be an outlier. Some people claim to not have issues and some are able to alleviate their issues... uh-um, I mean, "keep out of limp mode" (so, not alleviated...) with a few little upgrades. The thing is the particular track and the way in which the car is driven will effect fluid/component temperatures. For an OEM-delivered vehicle, if to be "track-able", it needs to be a blanket for 99.99% of drivers, all track scenarios.

3. The ST line is not that competent and "up to the task" (they overheat the brakes via the torque-vectoring system, engine or differential, too). Nor is the RS. The Raptor, in it's "track" environment and the GT350 (TP/2017+/R) are, yes, capable and competent. The Ford GT is a race car.

4. Exactly. At least offer it as an add-on option. If this was done, I may have gone along with a 2019 PP2 in NFG. I've already tracked a Coyote/MT82 car without coolers - I'm not doing that again. I got away with it then, but I wouldn't now. (FYI the Boss cars are not elusive to heat issues either)

[Mountain]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

With respect to #2, I don't think adding coolers to your car will void the warranty. From what I understand, Ford (in this example) would have to be able to prove that the mod was responsible for the failure of the car. I can't see how adding additional cooling could ever be used as something that caused a failure in the car (assuming that the coolers and lines didn't leak fluids, which damaged the car).

So, I wouldn't be too worried about a voided warranty due to adding some coolers.

One thing people tend to forget about coolers: pressure and flow/volume.

What I mean is this: You can put a $50 oil cooler, with cool, shiny red and blue -AN lines, but that $50 cooler may have a pressure and/or flow drop significant enough to cause an insufficient lubrication condition during some extensive maneuver and then destroy the engine.

You don't simply just add coolers, like you are on Forza 7. You need to logically chose ones in a sufficient specification for your use.

[kttxz06]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

It won't run 9s that easily. You know, everyone always thinks it's just soo easy to run 9s. Like you just slap a blower on a car that is running low 11s and it'll hit 9s no questions asked. If it was that easy, then where are all the 9 sec Mustangs at?

Reminds me of the old Fast N Furious line. Just turn the NOS timer and you'll run 9's. lol. Like doing that will all of a sudden to gain 2 seconds in the 1/4. First, when he adds the Whip, he'll need to do fueling most likely. I think he's on E85 now, so that helps, but he's going to fuel out anyways esp if he wants to run anything other than stock boost. So, he'll need a cam or low side. He's not getting 9's by just adding a Whip. Now, if he does supporting mods to compliment it, then yes, he'll easily hit 9's. Even on those shit tires he has.



I see he's gotten down to 11.3 which is pretty good. I must of seen one of his older videos. But let's be clear, just like every Ford guy, it is NOT stock. They keep staying it's stock, but it's not. So, as mentioned, they keep changing the rules on us as it suits their needs.



Just tell people your mods and admit that your aren't stock. It's like he has to say he's stock to make his fanboy friends feel better about their purchases.

Once we hit the track, it's gonna be click bait time like a muther. Gonna put............stock Zl1 does 9.2 in 1/4. I'll leave the list of mods out and just tell everyone..............."its a stock block". It still has more in it!!!!!!!!!!!! Well no shit. Every car has more in it. smh.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Mountain

1. From what I recall (I may need to look back), but the brake fade everyone talks about with the '13 GT500 TP is only a minor comment and likely one that would be cured with a performance DOT-4 brake fluid. Under hard tracking, due to the large displacement engine, positive displacement supercharger, the car does get toasty after hard tracking. Good point, too, on the Z06 example.

2. Well, for one, non-PP cars and PP1 cars a like have overheating issues. In addition, there are also people with the PP2 having overheating issues. So, it will not be an outlier. Some people claim to not have issues and some are able to alleviate their issues... uh-um, I mean, "keep out of limp mode" (so, not alleviated...) with a few little upgrades. The thing is the particular track and the way in which the car is driven will effect fluid/component temperatures. For an OEM-delivered vehicle, if to be "track-able", it needs to be a blanket for 99.99% of drivers, all track scenarios.

3. The ST line is not that competent and "up to the task" (they overheat the brakes via the torque-vectoring system, engine or differential, too). Nor is the RS. The Raptor, in it's "track" environment and the GT350 (TP/2017+/R) are, yes, capable and competent. The Ford GT is a race car.

4. Exactly. At least offer it as an add-on option. If this was done, I may have gone along with a 2019 PP2 in NFG. I've already tracked a Coyote/MT82 car without coolers - I'm not doing that again. I got away with it then, but I wouldn't now. (FYI the Boss cars are not elusive to heat issues either)

1. I think I don't remember I do believe in the SVT owners supplement it did say to change the fluid if you intended on tracking the vehicle. I am not 100% sure on that but you are correct.

2. True, jsut reporting on what I had seen glancing over there.

3. What I meant by "up to the task" is I believe, I could be wrong that the Ford Performance vehicles are warrantied for track use.

"Under the all-caps heading "WHAT IS NOT COVERED UNDER THE NEW VEHICLE LIMITED WARRANTY," the 2017 Ford Car and Light Truck Warranty includes "misuse of the vehicle, such as driving over curbs, overloading, racing or using the vehicle as a permanent stationary power source."

However, a Ford representative sent us this clarification: "Ford vehicles such as Mustang, GT350, Focus RS, Focus & Fiesta ST and Raptor are designed for spirited driving and will be covered by warranty if the vehicle is operated within the limits and guidelines outlined in the vehicle's owner's guide and warranty manual, including when the vehicle is driven in 'track mode,' a feature that is contained on some vehicles, if it is driven on a track in a manner that is consistent with the guidelines.
From Auto Blog

4. Agreed