[FastCarFanBoy]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

One more thought on this. My frustration with this whole topic is the only reason we are even having this discussion is that Ford was right there at the door of making the PP2 not only a track car, but possibly a track STAR. And they punked out. They decided track capable was good enough.

I don't think the PP2 is even track capable. Capable of what exactly? It's no more capable than my wifes SUV.

come to think of it...maybe my wifes SUV is a track truck. A TracUV?

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

I don't think the PP2 is even track capable. Capable of what exactly? It's no more capable than my wifes SUV.

come to think of it...maybe my wifes SUV is a track truck. A TracUV?

can run for an entire tank of fuel at maximum speed around GM’s Milford Road Course without cooking its engine, transmission, differential, or brakes.

No - 2013 GT500
No - 2016 GT350
No - 2018 PP2

Yes - Turbo 4 1LE
Yes - V6 1LE
Yes - 1SS and 2SS
Yes - 1SS 1LE and 2SS 1LE
Yes - ZL1
Yes - ZL1 1LE

[J_MaherAMG]

Originally Posted by torqueaddict

Well, I'll admit, these are the kind threads that would worry me had I been a potential buyer. Before I bought the Camaro, among the first things I googled was 'LT1 blown engine'. Then saw the Corvette issues, early LT1 failures and so on. And of course, I combed through the entire problem thread here. In the end, it seemed that Chevy got a handle on it although there's the occasional post about a spun bearing or dropped valve here or there. Still, considering the amount of modders and track rats on the forum, my confidence in its stoutness is still high. And the fact that it's a simpler, tried and true design, helps. Only time will tell. So far, no oil consumption whatsoever and power delivery is as expected.

Thanks for the detailed response. Although I consider the GT350 too expensive for what you get, it's probably one of the only trims I'd encourage someone with the budget to look into at the moment. I think Ford was wise to use the Tremec and feedback has been good in terms of feel. Still, even though the engine failures might be low in the grand scheme of things (hopefully), knowing the root cause would be beneficial to the community in the long run. It's good your engine is healthy and I wish you good luck with your car. I'm sure the enjoyment factor will be worth it in the long run.

For sure, the LT1's are undoubtedly strong engines. And of course the LS engines are I think by and far the most popular project engine choice and for good reasons: Cheap to source, relatively inexpensive to mod (to a degree), and easy to make power.

I think we are honestly spoiled by today's offerings, and I do agree that the 350/R requires a specific type of buyer to truly appreciate what it has to offer. For example, when they did the BDC comp in 2017, the R had a faster Laguna Seca time than an NSX, faster than the GTR, hell even faster than a 458 Italia they had lapped in previous years. When you compare it that way, for the money you are getting an incredible bargain. On the other hand, it also showcases just how much of a bargain the ZL1/1LE is as well considering their performance envelope as well.

What I think is different with a portion of the 350/R buyers is the type of experience those buyers are after. Like I was telling Blaq, the other cars I was primarily considering (even though there is no dealer local to me) was a Porsche GT4 and a Boxster Spyder. I think a fair portion of the 350/R buyers are the same type of people who buy a Cayman, or buy a 911 for example. They know very well that there are more capable, certainly much faster, cars available (and often for less money), but there are aspects about the driving experience or unique characteristics that these buyers are looking for. I mean, people buy Cayman's (not even GT4's) for over $80K, which would seem insane considering the modest power and capabilities right? But those buyers are happy as pigs in shit

Edit: Appreciate the well wishes too, and the same to you sir. My father, recently passed from terminal cancer god bless him, was very similar in mindset to many of you guys on here when it comes to performance engines. He wanted all the torque in the world, right off of idle LOL he loved his Vette and how it performed, just as much as I love ringing mine out to 8K on backroads. I've come to understand that different people look for different things that interest them, and there is no right or wrong choice, just whats best for each individual.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

I don't think the PP2 is even track capable. Capable of what exactly? It's no more capable than my wifes SUV.

come to think of it...maybe my wifes SUV is a track truck. A TracUV?

Wish my wife drove a Cayenne Turbo S!

[FastCarFanBoy]

Originally Posted by hotlap

No - 2013 GT500
No - 2016 GT350
No - 2018 PP2

Yes - Turbo 4 1LE
Yes - V6 1LE
Yes - 1SS and 2SS
Yes - 1SS 1LE and 2SS 1LE
Yes - ZL1
Yes - ZL1 1LE

what's your point exactly? Are you disagreeing with MartinJlm and saying track capable is synonymous with track car?

For me you have DD oriented cars that are "capable" of being tracked ala SS and then you have cars designed primarily for track prowess that can be driven on the street ala Z28, ZL1LE, 350R

the 911 is trackable , the GT3RS is a track car.

This thread is so far off track its getting surreal. If a convertible SS is a track car to you I have no problem with it , but if it is why can't it be ordered with the 1LE package?

[joe944]

The thread is off track because a lot of people are just bummed that the PP2 didn't deliver. Competition drives progress which turns into better products for everyone.

I very closely cross-shopped the Mustang varieties with my Zl1. I prefer some things on the Mustang and some on the Camaro. The Zl1 won for being the most well-rounded. Quality issues are well-known in both camps, but I feel like the GM powertrain would be more reliable long term, as I plan to own this car for a long time.

[FastCarFanBoy]

Originally Posted by joe944

The thread is off track because a lot of people are just bummed that the PP2 didn't deliver. Competition drives progress which turns into better products for everyone.

I very closely cross-shopped the Mustang varieties with my Zl1. I prefer some things on the Mustang and some on the Camaro. The Zl1 won for being the most well-rounded. Quality issues are well-known in both camps, but I feel like the GM powertrain would be more reliable long term, as I plan to own this car for a long time.

My co-worker has a 2012 ZL1 that he was mulling dumping $9k into by buying one of the aftermarket companies 650whp packages. I suggested he go drive the new ZL1 first... I'm betting he comes home with the new one. his is a M6 , I told him to be sure to drive the A10.

[joe944]

The A10 is a lot of fun. First auto I've ever owned, and I had a hard time doing it. It has enough different modes to keep you from being bored and PSM is excellent.

I refused to get the DSG in my Golf R and after dealing with that neutered POS manual option I was reluctant to get the red-headed stepchild transmission again, which pushed me to look at the A10.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

what's your point exactly? Are you disagreeing with MartinJlm and saying track capable is synonymous with track car?

For me you have DD oriented cars that are "capable" of being tracked ala SS and then you have cars designed primarily for track prowess that can be driven on the street ala Z28, ZL1LE, 350R

the 911 is trackable , the GT3RS is a track car.

This thread is so far off track its getting surreal. If a convertible SS is a track car to you I have no problem with it , but if it is why can't it be ordered with the 1LE package?

This is a vs 2018 Mustang thread and the conversation since the PP2’s R&T outing has been to contrast the two companies approach to performance.

Chevy’s standard is that any Camaro with performance intent can withstand its owner taking it to a HPDE or drag racing. The cars are warranted for it.

The PP2 going into limp mode is inexplicable. As was the 16 GT350. Customers are paying $50k for a car that Ford deliberately knee capped to avoid warranty exposure. Cars that were rolled out with a lot of fanfare as track cars.

[TRZ06]

Originally Posted by hotlap

This is a vs 2018 Mustang thread and the conversation since the PP2’s R&T outing has been to contrast the two companies approach to performance.

Chevy’s standard is that any Camaro with performance intent can withstand its owner taking it to a HPDE or drag racing. The cars are warranted for it.

The PP2 going into limp mode is inexplicable. As was the 16 GT350. Customers are paying $50k for a car that Ford deliberately knee capped to avoid warranty exposure. Cars that were rolled out with a lot of fanfare as track cars.

I am not excusing Ford or justifying what they did, but you have to remember that this concept of Manufactures churning out track cars off the showroom floor is a very new concept, unless you get into the exotic brands.

GM just started it with the 1LE basically. In the past , it was unheard of for main stream manufactures to spit out a track car that did not need additional aftermarket stuff to make a track worthy, let alone warranty it for that type of use.

Ford is just still playing catch up in that regard, the old GM was the same way, they handicapped their performance cars in the past too.

This is just a new market niche and they are all trying to find their way. GM is leading the charge, Ford is following, albeit, more slowly and reluctantly.

[FastCarFanBoy]

Originally Posted by hotlap

This is a vs 2018 Mustang thread and the conversation since the PP2’s R&T outing has been to contrast the two companies approach to performance.

Chevy’s standard is that any Camaro with performance intent can withstand its owner taking it to a HPDE or drag racing. The cars are warranted for it.

The PP2 going into limp mode is inexplicable. As was the 16 GT350. Customers are paying $50k for a car that Ford deliberately knee capped to avoid warranty exposure. Cars that were rolled out with a lot of fanfare as track cars.

15-16 base/tech cars going into limp mode was easy explicable...they had no coolers and Ford offered 2 options with coolers.

while I agree the PP2 going into limp mode is inexcusable mainly because they outfitted it with R comps. Do you have any press release info from Ford where they claim it was a track car? Or is that internet fanfare your speaking of?

Your assertion that Ford reasoning was warranty driven is not founded in reality as Ford will warranty a car on track when not under competitive circumstances.

[kttxz06]

There's this guy on Youtube called Stang Mode. His channel is WHY Ford fanboys are the way they are. 2 months ago he puts out a propaganda video stating the PP2 WILL BE the best Mustang out to purchase. He also cuts damn nearly a second off his 1/4 mile time. He runs a 11.7, calls it a 11.0 in his videos. His viewers are all hyped up thinking it's a 11.0 car, when it's really more of a 12.0 car. Says his car is 'stock' when it's clearly not, but I'll give him a pass for that since the new 'stock' term now means as long as no block work is done.



I can't wait to get my shit out on the track and post a low 9 b4 I pull the motor. The title of the video is going to be.............Stock '18 Zl1 does a 9.2 1/4 mile.



The thing is, read the comments. It's fkn insane how people think. You have one guy or girl posting.................."Add a Whipple and you run 9's" smh. I'm like, wtf are these people doing? Anyhow, good lord. Comedy central on YouTube today.

[FastCarFanBoy]

Originally Posted by kttxz06

There's this guy on Youtube called Stang Mode. His channel is WHY Ford fanboys are the way they are. 2 months ago he puts out a propaganda video stating the PP2 WILL BE the best Mustang out to purchase. He also cuts damn nearly a second off his 1/4 mile time. He runs a 11.7, calls it a 11.0 in his videos. His viewers are all hyped up thinking it's a 11.0 car, when it's really more of a 12.0 car. Says his car is 'stock' when it's clearly not, but I'll give him a pass for that since the new 'stock' term now means as long as no block work is done.



I can't wait to get my shit out on the track and post a low 9 b4 I pull the motor. The title of the video is going to be.............Stock '18 Zl1 does a 9.2 1/4 mile.



The thing is, read the comments. It's fkn insane how people think. You have one guy or girl posting.................."Add a Whipple and you run 9's" smh. I'm like, wtf are these people doing? Anyhow, good lord. Comedy central on YouTube today.

1) I think his car runs 11.3's.

2) It would run 9's with a Whipple.

3) looking forward to your low 9 second slip.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by TRZ06

I am not excusing Ford or justifying what they did, but you have to remember that this concept of Manufactures churning out track cars off the showroom floor is a very new concept, unless you get into the exotic brands.

GM just started it with the 1LE basically. In the past , it was unheard of for main stream manufactures to spit out a track car that did not need additional aftermarket stuff to make a track worthy, let alone warranty it for that type of use.

Ford is just still playing catch up in that regard, the old GM was the same way, they handicapped their performance cars in the past too.

This is just a new market niche and they are all trying to find their way. GM is leading the charge, Ford is following, albeit, more slowly and reluctantly.

A lot of truth in this post. A good number of us (self included) are blaming Ford for not reacting quickly and in the same manner as GM wrt track cars. That coulda be over-reacting. As TRZ06 points out, this is a fairly new frontier, at least the way it is playing out now.

I think my bigger disappointment with Ford is that the inclusion of the track spec tires indicates that they were likely thinking about making the car more suitable for track. I wish they had changed the tires at the point they decided not do add coolers. I’ll admit I may be way to singular in focus on this. But I can say I would be pi$$ed if I wanted a PP2 and had to go with expensive tires that have substandard wear and weather characteristics for the modes in which I would be forced to operate the vehicle. If people who buy the car are okay with that, then fine, and I’ll stand down.