[aestil]

Originally Posted by Marty McFlew

I don't know why because those looking at Camaros will also probably be looking at Mustang or Challenger at some point, and according to the stats some of those Camaro buyers have been buying Challengers now. They are the main competitors, why would they try and ignore that? The numbers don't lie.

I think GM is trying to go after a different type of customer. Not just 'oh I want a V8' type of a customer. They are putting the Camaro in a segment of people who want outstanding performance at a bargain. That's what the Camaro is to me. it gives me performance that used to be attainable only at $60k+ and with a reasonably nice interior as well [if I want to pay for it].

Sure there are people who traditionally were Mustang/Camaro/Challenger customers and who are both turned off by the higher sticker price and don't find the better performance metrics compelling. But it seems as though, based on the information we have, that the Camaro has been selling at a higher average transaction price than the 5th Gen did, and we can assume that translates into more profit for GM, which means that they don't need to sell as many to be profitable.

Lets do a thought experiment. If the profit per car sold is $4k on the 6th Gen [just as a round number, I have no evidence that this is correct], and the profit on the 5th gen [on average] was $3k, then if they sell 6900 5th gens a month [this number is actually the average number of 5th gens that were sold monthly over the production run of that car] they make $20,763,000 profit. Now, real numbers for '6th Gen' Camaro sales are hard to figure out because we can assume some percentage of the start of the year was 5th gen cars still left on a lot. Lets just say 5000/mo as a projected average, but with a profit of $4k a per vehicle instead, that gets us $20,000,000.

Obviously all those numbers are just made up, but seeing as how the cost of the Camaro went up, we can reasonably assume that GM makes more money per car sold, so there is some calculus that would indicate maybe they DON'T need to sell as many vehicles to make as much money.

This isn't to say they don't want to sell more. I mean, I bet they were selling as many 2SS Camaros as Honda sells Civics, but the idea is that it's better for the brand, and for GM as a whole to have more upmarket products which retain value better and are more profitable per unit sold rather than trying to compete only on volume.

Keeping in mind ~60k cars annually for what is realistically a very niche vehicle is still quite a few units. It's not like the shifted the business model into McLaren territory.

[nvrsatisfied]

Originally Posted by motorhead

You would think so, but we just aren't sure. The large SUV segment and Truck market is a cash cow right now and for the most part always has been. Ford was a lot more vested in Europe and britex hurt them bad. Mustang profits may have nothing to do with it. Who knows for sure. From being in business myself, I know I would be nervous if my sales in a certain area dropped at the rates they have for the Camaro. If GM is doing this on purpose to make it a low volume niche car, then why offer it with a V6 and a 4 banger? It doesn't add up.

Plenty higher level manufacturers offer their models in lower trims

[Marty McFlew]

Originally Posted by 97one

Why don't you just order what you want? I don't think you will find exactly what you want.
You could have had it months ago.
I had to order what I wanted because no dealer orders exactly what I wanted.
Mine took me over 4 months to get, but that is the longest wait I seen.

Because when you order you will pay more, probably full MSRP. Buy off the lot you can negotiate much more.

[Marty McFlew]

Originally Posted by aestil

I think GM is trying to go after a different type of customer. Not just 'oh I want a V8' type of a customer. They are putting the Camaro in a segment of people who want outstanding performance at a bargain. That's what the Camaro is to me. it gives me performance that used to be attainable only at $60k+ and with a reasonably nice interior as well [if I want to pay for it].

Sure there are people who traditionally were Mustang/Camaro/Challenger customers and who are both turned off by the higher sticker price and don't find the better performance metrics compelling. But it seems as though, based on the information we have, that the Camaro has been selling at a higher average transaction price than the 5th Gen did, and we can assume that translates into more profit for GM, which means that they don't need to sell as many to be profitable.

Lets do a thought experiment. If the profit per car sold is $4k on the 6th Gen [just as a round number, I have no evidence that this is correct], and the profit on the 5th gen [on average] was $3k, then if they sell 6900 5th gens a month [this number is actually the average number of 5th gens that were sold monthly over the production run of that car] they make $20,763,000 profit. Now, real numbers for '6th Gen' Camaro sales are hard to figure out because we can assume some percentage of the start of the year was 5th gen cars still left on a lot. Lets just say 5000/mo as a projected average, but with a profit of $4k a per vehicle instead, that gets us $20,000,000.

Obviously all those numbers are just made up, but seeing as how the cost of the Camaro went up, we can reasonably assume that GM makes more money per car sold, so there is some calculus that would indicate maybe they DON'T need to sell as many vehicles to make as much money.

This isn't to say they don't want to sell more. I mean, I bet they were selling as many 2SS Camaros as Honda sells Civics, but the idea is that it's better for the brand, and for GM as a whole to have more upmarket products which retain value better and are more profitable per unit sold rather than trying to compete only on volume.

Keeping in mind ~60k cars annually for what is realistically a very niche vehicle is still quite a few units. It's not like the shifted the business model into McLaren territory.

Well if that were the case they would be flying off the shelves if the price was right.

[nvrsatisfied]

Originally Posted by Marty McFlew

Because when you order you will pay more, probably full MSRP. Buy off the lot you can negotiate much more.

That's bullshit! We have huge threads for TPW's of cars we ordered and Becky gives us the status. We all discussed pricing we received and none of us paid MSRP. If you seriously wanted to buy one, Bexky could give you a price, order the car, and deliver it.

[97one]

Originally Posted by Marty McFlew

Because when you order you will pay more, probably full MSRP. Buy off the lot you can negotiate much more.

Not true!
I got mine for under invoice.

[95birdible]

I have heard this a few times on the streets about the Camaro vs. Mustang vs. Challenger "There must be something wrong with it since both the Mustang and Challenger are outselling the Camaro" Perception on the street is worth more than the MSRP. People are thinking they are not selling cause there must be something wrong with them. Once they get into the dealership, sticker shock happens. A Scat Pak Challenger or Mustang GT is perceived to be a better and cheaper value for someone's hard earned money. Why would Joe Consumer pay a shit ton more money for their weekend fun car that the missus said they could have? I know my 12 1SS Vert is about 10 grand or more now than I paid for it new in August 2011. Think she will let me trade up? Hell no she won't. But if there was a cheaper comparable option she might go for it.

[SS 1LE]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

a profit over sales strategy has led to the demise of some of the biggest retailers...its a proven horrible business strategy

So you're saying a business making good profits, will close it's doors as making money is a horrible business strategy? Holy cow...

[CapeCruisin]

Originally Posted by Dudie7

It isn't sitting well with them...that's a guarantee. Their Motortrend Car of the Year is being outsold nearly 2 to 1 by its main rival and is also losing the battle to the traditional 3rd place car. Listening to all of the baloney about profit margins and fleet sales is the ultimate denial of the truth...they did not get this car right. Flat out, plain and simple.

Originally Posted by CapeCruisin

Looks like they got it right to me. Pricing on the other hand, is a little steep.

Originally Posted by Dudie7

That certainly is impressive! With all THAT going for it, it surely has to be flying off dealer lots. No? Hmmmm, so what gives? Perhaps there's more to making a car great than performance numbers (which is easily remedied in the aftermarket) and pricing is only one of the issues. Just a thought...

What gives is that the price is high, which I already said. I'm just 'giving' you the facts. Do you not like facts? Why are you bringing up 'aftermarket'? What does that have to do with pricing from the factory? I don't get what you are arguing for.

[SS 1LE]

Originally Posted by JaxChris

Who do you think has the largest volume?

I live a few miles from Stingray Chevy (owned by Classic Chevy in Texas -- aka the Hurley family) and they have 120 new Camaros on the lot. Out of that, 25 are 2SS Coupes & 6 2SS Convertibles. They have the largest inventory in the southeast.

Then Brandon Ford is the largest Ford dealer in the southeast. They have 90 Mustangs on their front and back lot. Of those 90, 49 are GT's.

Chevy moving the prices "upmarket" have done nothing but benefit Ford. The high prices on even 2LT's are making GT's and Ecoboost premiums prices look really attractive -- that is why Ford has a nearly 2:1 sales volume right now.

Separately:

A company that moves a higher volume, at a lower margin, is a better economic engine than a company that purposely cancels sales, lowers production and increases margins to obtain the same money in the bank. Employing less because you are producing less will cause a shrink in macro economy and lead to less possible buyers.

Since the domestic auto industry is a key component of the US economic engine, we don't want them doing what GM is doing. That is just selling out to Wall Street analysts for the good of fund managers.

It might look good right now on paper if you only focus on the profit per unit numbers, but GM is setting up a dark period ahead for everyone. All of US retail will suffer if these large engines continue to spin themselves down.

As far as I know the number 1 chevy dealer in the southeast is Jon Hall. Past like 9 out of 10 they have been named that.

http://www.news-journalonline.com/ne...theast---again

Funny thing is I just checked their site, not one SS in stock...odd.

http://www.jonhallchevrolet.com/Vehi...lts?search=new

[motorhead]

Originally Posted by SS 1LE

So you're saying a business making good profits, will close it's doors as making money is a horrible business strategy? Holy cow...

No that isn't what he is saying at all.

[SS 1LE]

Originally Posted by Marty McFlew

Because when you order you will pay more, probably full MSRP. Buy off the lot you can negotiate much more.

I nearly spit out my water when I read this...

[aestil]

Originally Posted by Marty McFlew

Well if that were the case they would be flying off the shelves if the price was right.

I'm pretty sure you missed the point of what I wrote if that was your conclusion.

[FastCarFanBoy]

Originally Posted by SS 1LE

So you're saying a business making good profits, will close it's doors as making money is a horrible business strategy? Holy cow...

when you raise your profits to the point of pricing yourself out of your market, yes you will close your doors.

...but its not that simple. GM has production costs in the hundreds of millions of dollars to amortize over the life cycle of the Camaro. High profit per unit is all good and well but irrelevant if you dont sell enough units to offset costs