[Alan47717]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

I am ok with this to a certain extent but they need to eliminate the traditional dealer model like Tesla does. They need to remove them from the order and allocation process, which is a complete mess and eliminate all the markup stuff that GM doesn't want them doing. We just need GM service centers for factory repairs since there is literally no maintenance on EVs. I am on year 4 with my Tesla and I have been to Costco for new tires and top the washer fluid myself. If you have a problem they come to your house as long as the repair does not require a lift. You get 8 year powertrain and battery warranty.

An EV is more like an Smartphone now. You keep it as long as the battery is still holding a charge and the processors are still powerful enough to run the software effectively.

Literally no maintenance? Brakes, tires, cooling systems?

Just like smart phones? Out here in the SW ICE vehicles are routinely on the road for well over twenty years. Given the damage heat does to batteries, not to mention living with reduced range as well due to the heat, an EV could well be looking at two very expensive battery replacements to achieve the same level of durability.

[keep_hope_alive]

speaking of an EV Camaro...

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by Alan47717

Literally no maintenance? Brakes, tires, cooling systems?

Just like smart phones? Out here in the SW ICE vehicles are routinely on the road for well over twenty years. Given the damage heat does to batteries, not to mention living with reduced range as well due to the heat, an EV could well be looking at two very expensive battery replacements to achieve the same level of durability.

Tires yes. My first set of michelins lasted about 30,000 miles. Brake pads should last 100,000 miles or more since you typically rely on regen braking from the electric motors. I rarely touch the brake pedal in my Tesla Model 3.
I mean I actually don't use the brake pedal the whole trip. The regen braking will take you to a complete stop and apply brake hold while at a stop. Tesla actually implements a light brake wipe into the software programming just to make sure you don't get rust build up, etc. There is a battery cooling system but there is no required fluid change for it because it is not subjected to the high heat and the fluid will last the life of the car, supposedly. Same thing for the oil in the drive units, lifetime fluid and the supposedly last for a million miles.

As for the batteries, they are rated to last 300,000 - 500,000 miles. They give you a 8 year 120,000 mile powertrain warranty, 4/50,000 on everything else. They use sophisticated battery management systems to keep the battery at the proper temperature. When you are planning to Supercharge, it will heat up the battery so that it will accept a charge better.

The battery is very expensive, about $15k installed to replace the one I have. This is the biggest concern owning one long-term out of warranty. I was referring to smart phones for this reason. You have to be prepared to trade-in EVs fairly quickly as the innovation cycle on them is just ramping up. ICE technology is pretty much maxed out.

Now, in 10 years from now as they scale up battery production, the cost should come down. They are also working on battery recycling where you sell back your existing battery and swap out with a new one.

https://www.carshtuff.com/post/can-t...es-be-recycled

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by keep_hope_alive

speaking of an EV Camaro...

I really hope it doesn't wind up looking like that. If so, just let the Camaro die and call that thing a Malibu or something.

The best part is when you take it to the car show and lift up the hood to reveal the frunk instead of the engine. I guess you can keep your beers on ice in the frunk.

[keep_hope_alive]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

I really hope it doesn't wind up looking like that. If so, just let the Camaro die and call that thing a Malibu or something.

The best part is when you take it to the car show and lift up the hood to reveal the frunk instead of the engine. I guess you can keep your beers on ice in the frunk.

Totally agree that it should be a Malibu, or maybe revive the Biscayne or reuse the Caprice. A Camaro should always remain a model for a two door sports coupe, regardless of powerplant. But if GM does want to use the same "skate board" chassis, then vehicles will have the same wheelbase.

I would, however, be interested in buying it if it looked like this... as an equivalent replacement for my Accord while keeping the Camaro SS as the tribute to ICE.

[Gen6cyl]

Originally Posted by keep_hope_alive

speaking of an EV Camaro...

At least we will still have the color contrast of the front facia.

[Alan47717]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

Tires yes. My first set of michelins lasted about 30,000 miles. Brake pads should last 100,000 miles or more since you typically rely on regen braking from the electric motors. I rarely touch the brake pedal in my Tesla Model 3.
I mean I actually don't use the brake pedal the whole trip. The regen braking will take you to a complete stop and apply brake hold while at a stop. Tesla actually implements a light brake wipe into the software programming just to make sure you don't get rust build up, etc. There is a battery cooling system but there is no required fluid change for it because it is not subjected to the high heat and the fluid will last the life of the car, supposedly. Same thing for the oil in the drive units, lifetime fluid and the supposedly last for a million miles.

As for the batteries, they are rated to last 300,000 - 500,000 miles. They give you a 8 year 120,000 mile powertrain warranty, 4/50,000 on everything else. They use sophisticated battery management systems to keep the battery at the proper temperature. When you are planning to Supercharge, it will heat up the battery so that it will accept a charge better.

The battery is very expensive, about $15k installed to replace the one I have. This is the biggest concern owning one long-term out of warranty. I was referring to smart phones for this reason. You have to be prepared to trade-in EVs fairly quickly as the innovation cycle on them is just ramping up. ICE technology is pretty much maxed out.

Now, in 10 years from now as they scale up battery production, the cost should come down. They are also working on battery recycling where you sell back your existing battery and swap out with a new one.

https://www.carshtuff.com/post/can-t...es-be-recycled

Tesla's really shouldn't be the baseline for the discussions we are having. Do you think the numbers you are quoting apply to a Nissan Leaf?

EV batteries don't care about mileage or number of years any more than your smart phone battery does. They care about the number of recharge cycles and the duty cycle associated with those recharges. Information is already coming out that says to not charge above 80% or let them drop below 20% to maximize battery life. There goes 40% of your range.

You "rarely touch your brakes"? How does the car know to slow down and at what rate? I'm sure there is hyperbole in your comment but be serious, EV's are heavy and their brakes will need servicing regardless of the presence of Regen braking.

[ChevyRules]

Originally Posted by Alan47717

Tesla's really shouldn't be the baseline for the discussions we are having. Do you think the numbers you are quoting apply to a Nissan Leaf?

Government law requires 8 year/100,000 warranty on the battery. Bumper-bumper can be different, but the important parts of the EV will be the same 8 year warranty. The only variance some Tesla's do come with a higher mileage allowance( My 3 LR is 125,000 miles vs 100,000 for the regular Model 3).

EV batteries don't care about mileage or number of years any more than your smart phone battery does. They care about the number of recharge cycles and the duty cycle associated with those recharges. Information is already coming out that says to not charge above 80% or let them drop below 20% to maximize battery life. There goes 40% of your range.

And how often do you need that range? I only use 15-25% state of charge on my commute( depends where I am going for my job). So charging to 60-70% is not a huge deal for me. It also shallows out the cycles therefore reducing degradation further.

For the times you do need the range, yeah charge to 100%. The goal is just to minimize the times you go to 100% and below 20%.

You "rarely touch your brakes"? How does the car know to slow down and at what rate? I'm sure there is hyperbole in your comment but be serious, EV's are heavy and their brakes will need servicing regardless of the presence of Regen braking.

With an EV setup for pure single pedal driving like Tesla's, there is no coasting. The moment you start to let up on the accelerator pedal, the car begins to regen brake. Depending how much you let up on the accelerator pedal determines how strong the regen braking is. It is strong enough to bring the car to a full stop. There is no hyperbole. Normal driving, I have very rarely needed to hit the brake pedal and use the friction brakes. The friction brakes do hold the car once stopped, but have not used it to bring the car to a stop.

Even if you have no interest in EV/Tesla's, go test drive a Tesla if you have a showroom near by. This part will be clarified within 30 seconds of your test drive.

[keep_hope_alive]

Originally Posted by ChevyRules

Government law requires 8 year/100,000 warranty on the battery. Bumper-bumper can be different, but the important parts of the EV will be the same 8 year warranty. The only variance some Tesla's do come with a higher mileage allowance( My 3 LR is 125,000 miles vs 100,000 for the regular Model 3).



And how often do you need that range? I only use 15-25% state of charge on my commute( depends where I am going for my job). So charging to 60-70% is not a huge deal for me. It also shallows out the cycles therefore reducing degradation further.

For the times you do need the range, yeah charge to 100%. The goal is just to minimize the times you go to 100% and below 20%.



With an EV setup for pure single pedal driving like Tesla's, there is no coasting. The moment you start to let up on the accelerator pedal, the car begins to regen brake. Depending how much you let up on the accelerator pedal determines how strong the regen braking is. It is strong enough to bring the car to a full stop. There is no hyperbole. Normal driving, I have very rarely needed to hit the brake pedal and use the friction brakes. The friction brakes do hold the car once stopped, but have not used it to bring the car to a stop.

Even if you have no interest in EV/Tesla's, go test drive a Tesla if you have a showroom near by. This part will be clarified within 30 seconds of your test drive.

Great info. The 3LR would be my go-to if I felt like spending $65k on a car.

For the braking, do you think some of the stoppage in traffic is also the car assisting (automatically) or is it really clear that's not happening and you're simply learning how control regen aggressiveness with pedal behavior?

[Wyzz Kydd]

The ‘how often do you need that range’ is, imnsho, a stupid question.

Maybe I need it once a week (pretty close) or maybe only once a month. However many times it is, an EV goes down as a failure every time. Why turn in an ICE vehicle that meets all your needs for an EV that definitely will not?

Yeah, in the future blah blah. BS! It’s not the future. Right now, the range isn’t there, the chargers aren’t there, affordability isn’t there. Without subsidies the minuscule amount sold would be even smaller.

[ChevyRules]

Originally Posted by keep_hope_alive

For the braking, do you think some of the stoppage in traffic is also the car assisting (automatically) or is it really clear that's not happening and you're simply learning how control regen aggressiveness with pedal behavior?

Nope, no car assisting. It's purely learning how to control the regen braking. For the few times I have misjudged it, I had to use the friction brakes. And that is usually the last 10 MPH or so.

Now with the latest software update issued by Tesla, they have introduced a feature where it will automatically blend in the friction brakes when regeneration braking will be limited in order to maintain single pedal driving. The two situations regeneration braking will be limited is if charged to 100%( electricity has nowhere to go if the battery is already maxed out) and the battery is too cold in the winter to accept the amount of electricity being produced by regeneration. The battery being too cold can be mitigated by preconditioning the car before leaving the house( car will warm and cabin and battery up using house power) or have the car charge right before you leave( charging the battery will naturally warm it up). By doing that mitigation, I haven't had issues with regen braking this winter and was still strong enough to stop the car.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by ChevyRules

Government law requires 8 year/100,000 warranty on the battery. Bumper-bumper can be different, but the important parts of the EV will be the same 8 year warranty. The only variance some Tesla's do come with a higher mileage allowance( My 3 LR is 125,000 miles vs 100,000 for the regular Model 3).



And how often do you need that range? I only use 15-25% state of charge on my commute( depends where I am going for my job). So charging to 60-70% is not a huge deal for me. It also shallows out the cycles therefore reducing degradation further.

For the times you do need the range, yeah charge to 100%. The goal is just to minimize the times you go to 100% and below 20%.



With an EV setup for pure single pedal driving like Tesla's, there is no coasting. The moment you start to let up on the accelerator pedal, the car begins to regen brake. Depending how much you let up on the accelerator pedal determines how strong the regen braking is. It is strong enough to bring the car to a full stop. There is no hyperbole. Normal driving, I have very rarely needed to hit the brake pedal and use the friction brakes. The friction brakes do hold the car once stopped, but have not used it to bring the car to a stop.

Even if you have no interest in EV/Tesla's, go test drive a Tesla if you have a showroom near by. This part will be clarified within 30 seconds of your test drive.

I just had a vision. In a few years from now folks on this forum will be discussing these same topics about an EV Camaro.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by Alan47717

Tesla's really shouldn't be the baseline for the discussions we are having. Do you think the numbers you are quoting apply to a Nissan Leaf?

EV batteries don't care about mileage or number of years any more than your smart phone battery does. They care about the number of recharge cycles and the duty cycle associated with those recharges. Information is already coming out that says to not charge above 80% or let them drop below 20% to maximize battery life. There goes 40% of your range.

You "rarely touch your brakes"? How does the car know to slow down and at what rate? I'm sure there is hyperbole in your comment but be serious, EV's are heavy and their brakes will need servicing regardless of the presence of Regen braking.

I absolutely think Tesla should be the baseline. Tesla is enjoying first mover advantage but now all the competition is coming. I think the traditional manufacturers will have actually have better build quality and nicer interiors than Tesla but they have some catching up to do as it relates to the powertrain, software control systems and OTA updates. Tesla batteries and motors are more efficient and more powerful than the 1st gen stuff we will see from the traditional players. Learning how to control dual motor setups and have them feel natural will take some time. Control systems, software update, etc. all require a new set of skills. GM is now hiring software developers that are required to manage the software updates and monetize the software features.

You have to think of EVs as a platform now, much like our smart phones, cable services, gaming systems. You buy this hardware platform which will be enabled with new features as you own the vehicle. Performance boosts, ability to add new apps, etc. My Tesla UI and features have change quite a bit since I first bought it in 2019. When I first got it there was no "brake hold" so you could only use the reg braking until about 5-10mph and then you had to apply the friction brakes. Then you get an update and bam, you can enable brake hold. Initially, the car only used the backup camera for reverse, then they said why not add the two side cameras on the fenders as well for more camera angles. So, the OTA updates are not just fart noises and games but they can keep tweaking the UI and improve the driving experience. In the first year of ownership the car received two performance boost updates, adding about 30-40hp on my Model 3 Performance. It knocked about 2 tenths off the 0-60mph and 1/4 mile times.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by keep_hope_alive

Great info. The 3LR would be my go-to if I felt like spending $65k on a car.

For the braking, do you think some of the stoppage in traffic is also the car assisting (automatically) or is it really clear that's not happening and you're simply learning how control regen aggressiveness with pedal behavior?

You are adapting the regen level and you just get used to how long it takes to stop. You modulate the accelerator pedal to control the amount of regen braking. It takes a little getting used to but after about 30 minutes you fully appreciate it. it is one of my favorite features when driving in traffic.

Each manufactures seem to program the regen a little different. Some put paddles on the steering wheel with different levels. Tesla used to have a standard and low setting but I think they just set it now and let everyone get used to it since having it one improves your range.