[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by rocket403

Redeyes are selling for MSRP in my area, there may be some dealers that are putting ADM's on their cars but if you shop around you will be rewarded. I'll take the RE for the best value.

And thanks for proving my point. That you have to shop around. I have not seen one in my area that was close to MSRP. How does a $73K vehicle tack on an extra $20K in options is beyond me. But there are plenty of them for over $90K. Not one of us with ZL1s had to pay even close to that over after adding on options. Mine came with every option in the book including car cover, battery tender, locking lug nuts, PDR, Nav, CF exposed hood insert, sunroof, A10, and some other shit. And it was $69K MSRP. How is a RE jumping that high in MSRP with options added on? And most of us were able to walk into a dealership and get a great deal on a ZL1 with no haggling. With the Shelbys, REs, Demons, etc people had to bargain and barter and come up with agreements on how much the markup would be limited to and all sorts of witchcraft/sorcery/voodoo/wizardry just to get one of those cars. Even kttxz06 had to hassle the dealership on a used GT350. The ZL1 is as simple as show up, drive home.

Originally Posted by TheRealJA105

Tahoe's already cost $70k+ with the 6.2 so it would be north of $80k like the Trackhawk

The Tahoe would be too big. They need to target either the Silverado or the Blazer with the LT4 or some variant of it.

Originally Posted by shaffe

That is an excellent point. They will have no problem selling it to the Ford Faithful. They will gobble it up regardless(unless it has a stupid high MSRP) And I am sure they will still sell every one they build. The problem like you mentioned is they are going to lose out or could easily lose out on the cross shopper

Could it possibly be that it isn't that they are willing to pay markups so much as the dealerships are not going to budge? I mean you make it sound like people are just walking in and wanting to pay extra for this car. But it seems more likely that the dealership are going to charge extra and they are not going to come down on price at all and if you want one then that is the only way you're going to get one. In that case if you popped up in a dealership and they wanted $5K over MSRP and nobody else in the country had one then you just might pay it. The dealerships have already established that the ball is in their court and that the buyer will be paying extra no matter what. So it isn't even an option anymore. There is not even any negotiations. AT best all you can do is try to get them to lower the markups in which case they might or might not. It got that way because of the customer tho.

Over here on GM's side of things we've established the opposite...that we have the control and the ball is in our court. We refuse to pay markups. And notice, some of us who have bought ZL1s also cross-shopped the Shelbys and refused to pay markups and so walked off. So it isn't that the car isn't worth markups or that another car is worth markups. It's that some of us are not gonna pay extra for any car no matter what it is and simply bought a car that had no markups attached.

[gameovergt]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Another topic that is interesting and that goes along with sales is how come the Mustang and Challenger don't seem to be doing too well despite their stellar sales? I can say with 100% certainty that in 5 years I will be able to walk into a dealership and buy a 7th Gen Camaro. In 5 years will there be a 7th Gen Mustang or will there still be the S550? In 5 years will there even be a Hellcat or Challenger anymore? Will it be the same ole body and almost 20 years without a change? Will there be a GT500? GT350? The Camaro is the only one that has a steady future right now. I don't think even Ford knows what they're going to do for the next 5 years at this point. So maybe the Camaro isn't doing as bad as the sales numbers would have one think.

you can predict the future? The Camaro went away once already. I wouldn't jinx it!

There will be some vehicle with the Mustang name on it.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by gameovergt

you can predict the future? The Camaro went away once already. I wouldn't jinx it!

There will be some vehicle with the Mustang name on it.

Is that what I said? No. It wasn't. I said that the 7th Gen Camaro is a sure thing. It will be here for 2022. Do we know if the S650 will be here or will it still be S550? Will a new Gen Challenger show up? Who knows. But for an absolute fact, there will be a 7th Gen Camaro in 2022. So if Mustang and Challenger are such huge successes, how come nobody knows what they'll have for purchase in 2022?

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Is that what I said? No. It wasn't. I said that the 7th Gen Camaro is a sure thing. It will be here for 2022. Do we know if the S650 will be here or will it still be S550? Will a new Gen Challenger show up? Who knows. But for an absolute fact, there will be a 7th Gen Camaro in 2022. So if Mustang and Challenger are such huge successes, how come nobody knows what they'll have for purchase in 2022?

The Mustang will still be on the S550. They now plan on using it until 2026 possibly 2028. Mustang will probably get the Bullit engine baseline and they may update the body but they are keeping the platform for a while yet.

Challenger who knows? It may be gone by 2022. Their answer for low sales seems to be "throw a Hellcat engine in it". That doesn't seem sustainable to me.

[NW-99SS]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

I am with you 100% man, well said! Auto, DCT, PDK...just not the same and not fun like a manual at all. I do appreciate being able to switch to auto mode in my soon to be sold M3, but I still crave the joy of a 3rd pedal and that is why I am selling it.

Sadly, we are the minority and it is true that manuals are being phased out, even V8's for that matter. I will be keeping a close eye on this transition as to ensure I get a great V8 manual car before they are all gone and dead.

I think companies like Porsche will have a manual option for a while, that is probably the only non-V8 sports car I would spend money on too.

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

This. Love the fact that GM gives you the option to go manual on their Halo cars as well despite being disadvantaged for magazine 0-60 numbers.

I really wish I could afford to keep my GS and scoop a new ZR1 M7...please lottery!

[Ethanolic]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Is that what I said? No. It wasn't. I said that the 7th Gen Camaro is a sure thing. It will be here for 2022. Do we know if the S650 will be here or will it still be S550? Will a new Gen Challenger show up? Who knows. But for an absolute fact, there will be a 7th Gen Camaro in 2022. So if Mustang and Challenger are such huge successes, how come nobody knows what they'll have for purchase in 2022?

What does Mustangs success have to do with anything. There will be a Mustang in 2022 and beyond. What chassis it rides on is a decision based on logistics and financial reasons. Mustang is on its own chassis right now so if Ford can hit its targets while using the current platform that makes financial sense. Camaro shares its platform with Caddy and its driver train with corvette, so the only decisions to be made are in the sheet metal and whether you can sell enough to justify building them.

There will probably be a Mustang until the day Ford shutters its doors. We know that isn’t the case with the Camaro. What generation it’s called in a given model year means zilch.

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by Ethanolic

What does Mustangs success have to do with anything. There will be a Mustang in 2022 and beyond. What chassis it rides on is a decision based on logistics and financial reasons. Mustang is on its own chassis right now so if Ford can hit its targets while using the current platform that makes financial sense. Camaro shares its platform with Caddy and its driver train with corvette, so the only decisions to be made are in the sheet metal and whether you can sell enough to justify building them.

There will probably be a Mustang until the day Ford shutters its doors. We know that isn’t the case with the Camaro. What generation it’s called in a given model year means zilch.

As Martin has explained on this forum numerous times the Camaro didnt go away because of low sales or profits. Mustang having it's own chassis I would call a disadvantage. No shared development costs means it isnt likely to be as good or as cost effective as it could be. (And if you have really driven one hard then you know how many short comings that chassis really has in GT form)

Yes I do think the Mustang will be around in 2022 and beyond. But at some point it will be going on a shared platform with Explorer and Aviator. You can decide for yourself if you think that is a good thing or not.

[DevilsReject97]

Originally Posted by Ethanolic

What does Mustangs success have to do with anything. There will be a Mustang in 2022 and beyond. What chassis it rides on is a decision based on logistics and financial reasons. Mustang is on its own chassis right now so if Ford can hit its targets while using the current platform that makes financial sense. Camaro shares its platform with Caddy and its driver train with corvette, so the only decisions to be made are in the sheet metal and whether you can sell enough to justify building them.

There will probably be a Mustang until the day Ford shutters its doors. We know that isn’t the case with the Camaro. What generation it’s called in a given model year means zilch.

The F-Body was selling around 100-125k cars a year total between the Trans-Am/Firebird, and Camaro. Even in the final year, they still sold almost 80k of the two cars combined..

Truth of the matter however is that GM simply didn't get a new chassis ready in time, and it was easier to cancel it. Although, GM learned how stupid that was later on..

[Ethanolic]

Sharing a platform has advantages and disadvantages, but that’s irrelevant when making a statement regarding a vehicles current success based on what platform it will ride on in the future. That’s the extent of my argument.

Being on a shared platform was one of if not the deciding factor in cancelling the Camaro...iirc what JM said.

Actually iirc he said the Fbody platform wouldn’t meet regulations and there wasn’t room to build Camaros on any other platform.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Ethanolic

Sharing a platform has advantages and disadvantages, but that’s irrelevant when making a statement regarding a vehicles current success based on what platform it will ride on in the future. That’s the extent of my argument.

Being on a shared platform was one of if not the deciding factor in cancelling the Camaro...iirc what JM said.

Actually iirc he said the Fbody platform wouldn’t meet regulations and there wasn’t room to build Camaros on any other platform.

One of Martin’s most interesting posts

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

I can assure you Camaro did not go away because of sales. Sales would have been third or fourth in the list of reasons why Camaro and Firebird went away. At the time I was the Director of Powertrain Planning at GM. I was responsible for working with Powertrain Engineering and each of the vehicle platform teams to determine which vehicles got which engines and transmissions and when they got them.

The primary reason Camaro went away was because the F-Body platform used for the Gen 4 cars would not pass new NHTSA crash regulations. There was also an issue with getting the cars capable of contributing to stricter fuel economy standards. GM did not have an appropriate RWD architecture to build the car on. There were two choices.... The new for 2002 Sigma architecture which was reserved for Cadillac RWD programs, or the Zeta platform out of Australia. There was a lot of energy put into getting it on Sigma, but at the end of the day, it was too expensive and the volume for Sigma was almost totally spoken for between CTS, STS, and SRX. There were also two other programs that never came to market that were in line ahead of Camaro to use Sigma. That is the only time sales and/or profitability would have been a real factor in the discussion. The other two programs would have had better profitability and would have fit better, in terms of volume, than Camaro. In fact, Camaro was actually forecast for higher volume. More than was left in the module after CTS, STS, and SRX.

Zeta wouldn’t work because of restrictions on how many vehicles could be imported from Australia. Eventually, GM did decide to import Pontiac GTO, Pontiac G8, and Chevrolet SS from Australia on the Zeta architecture.

Along the way, there was this little episode with cutting brands (Oldsmobile, Pontiac, Saab, Saturn, Hummer) and then bankruptcy. Even through all that, there were always proposals on the table for bringing back Camaro. Eventually, the decision was made to build a module of Zeta architecture in Canada instead of continuing to import small volumes of Zeta from Australia. That is how Gen 5 Camaro came about.

[BlaqWhole]

It doesn't matter what you tell some people or how many times you tell them because they'll just believe whatever conveniently fits their opinions.

The Camaro is selling the worst but guess what, it is the only one of the three that will have a new Gen by 2022. Which means new engines, new options, better performance, etc. So the point is that they can't be doing all that bad when we know we have new engines and designs coming up while the other two don't.

[BlaqWhole]

Where the hell has newmoon been??

[JhonnyGTR]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Where the hell has newmoon been??

Lol You Miss Him

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by JhonnyGTR

Lol You Miss Him

Soo much...(sniffle), lol!! I mean, he's usually front and center when the conversation changes to sales.