[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Mic drop award.


I will agree. But I still think that just because the PP1 has proven to be inferior does not mean it isn't the competitor. The PP2 is more capable and can put up more of a fight. But that still doesn't mean it is the actual natural competitor. It's like if a 10 year old loses a fight to another 10 year old so he gets his 12 year old brother to fight for him. The PP got outclasses so they needed a PP2 to step in. It doesn't change the fact that the PP is the actual competitor. It just means the PP needed the PP2 to fight for it.

I think it is more like Ford kept sending their 10 year old to fight GMs 12 year old. Now Ford has a 12 year old, so it makes sense to let them have it out now.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

So you honestly think that Ford engineered the PP1 already knowing the performance of the 1LE and failed. Then at the last second, engineered an entirely new suspension setup with different spring rates, advancetrack tune, different wheels, different tires, new suspension components etc. You are truly oblivious to the design cycle and lead times associated with designing and manufacturing parts….especially castings. It’s obvious that Ford had a game plan for the PP1 that would sell…and there were others within Ford who were not satisfied that it would not step up to the plate.

I think Ford got caught with their pants down. They made steady improvements with the S197 Coyote. Then the S550 GT came and instead of setting the bar higher they settled for mediocrity. Chevy set the bar higher than where it was and then jumped over that bar. If Ford had just aimed a little bit higher then the gap would not have been as bad as it was and is. But with all the excuses you and others keep giving them, why would they?

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

I think it is more like Ford kept sending their 10 year old to fight GMs 12 year old. Now Ford has a 12 year old, so it makes sense to let them have it out now.

Or...GM's 10 year old has a strong chin and packs a punch like a 15 year old. So now Ford has to send in a 12 year old that will have to stand in for their weak-ass 10 year old who already got Tysoned.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I think Ford got caught with their pants down. They made steady improvements with the S197 Coyote. Then the S550 GT came and instead of setting the bar higher they settled for mediocrity. Chevy set the bar higher than where it was and then jumped over that bar. If Ford had just aimed a little bit higher then the gap would not have been as bad as it was and is. But with all the excuses you and others keep giving them, why would they?

This ^ Ford did settle for what was good enough. GM set their internal goals much higher and bravo for them.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Or...GM's 10 year old has a strong chin and packs a punch like a 15 year old. So now Ford has to send in a 12 year old that will have to stand in for their weak-ass 10 year old who already got Tysoned.

HAHAHAHAHA, yeah...or that.

[SSfriendly]

Originally Posted by DevilsReject97

This has nothing to do with offering less standard hardware on the car, but more to do with including all the bells and whistles. My 1SS had the upgraded audio and the manual transmission. That was the end of the options. It still had the standard SS transmission, still had the standard Brembos, still had the standard LS3.... it just didn't have all the tech crap, the RS package, etc etc...

The problem with the new Camaro is that they are including all of that...and frankly, some people just don't want it. They just want a V8, some cloth seats, and a basic transmission.

Has zero to do with tires or anything of the like...in fact, I'd be shocked if they changed anything on the wheels at all, aside from maybe offering a cheaper wheel style.

You're dead wrong here. The 2 biggest items that affect price (outside of the engine and transmission) are wheels and tires. GM is going to downsize both of those and offer an all season on their base...you can book it. And you don't just change the wheel and tire dynamics without touching the suspension as well. The spring rates and shocks will be changed to better suite the larger sidewall tires and in the end....all of this will affect performance. If GM does it right, they can offer a lower priced V8 entry camaro than the mustang.

You don't get to pick and choose here....the Mustang GT is the base model V8. The Camaro SS is the base model V8. There is no disputing these facts. Just because your car choice was given a knife and came to a gun fight doesn't change that fact.

The 1LE is an upgrade "package" to the base SS, regardless of whether you have a 1SS or a 2SS. The PP1 and PP2 are both upgrade packages to the base GT. They would still be applicable to the 1LE in comparison as they do not add power, they only add suspension components and better handling equipment/aero.

Originally Posted by DevilsReject97

The GT 350/R would be a natural competitor to the Z/28, if it were in production. The Z/28 has always been the type of car that the GT 350 is....but unfortunately GM doesn't have a competitor in that class.... so it's either the 1LE or the ZL1 you get to face....

Either way, it's not a fair comparison for the Mustang...because it's not going to win it...

In the Fbody days, the Z28 aligned with the base GT and the SS was the up-level, so no...the Z28 has not always been the type of car as the GT350. This is something some of you fail to realize, these model lineups change from year to year. Before the PP2 existed, the only match-up we had was between the PP1 and 1LE. In all reality, the PP1 matched up better (option and price-wise) with the SS, but because chevy doesn't really have a lower optioned all season alternative, it's really all we had.

And again, it's this very reason GM is going to make a competitor to the base GT. They see the sales their losing out on and they want a piece of the pie. The also need to continue to expand their market to keep sales up. This is the entire reason special models come along a few years after int-ital release. Tooling costs are largely paid for and selling cars is job number 1.

Originally Posted by oldman

PLEASE, a performance pack that still can't be raced?? Too funny. This is just as bad as a Shelby with tech pack that can't be raced. Why can't Mustang fans understand this? This is like the battered spouse syndrome.

SEEK HELP

You'll notice Ford no longer calls these "track packs". Why is that do you think?

Originally Posted by Chadicus

I don't know how people can look at an object and assign it a "gender" in the first place. It's odd. However in my experience 99% of the women I date don't care so much about my car. Neither the Mustangs or the Camaros or Vette or whatever else I have.

Agreed

Originally Posted by Chadicus

As far as PP1 vs 1LE vs PP2. Previous to 18 I would say the PP was the equivalent to the 1LE. It got smoked.

You see, this is where we differ. The PP1 and 1LE were absolutely not equivalents. For the MY15 and MY16 GTs, 30% of buyers chose the performance pack. They didn't chose them for their track prowess, they chose them for the bigger brakes and unique wheels and tires.

You are absolutely correct in that the 1LE smoked the performance pack, as it should have.

We compare them because they were the only options available. Ford engineered a street oriented $2500 (bargain) option that "could" be occasionally taken to the track and GM engineered an ($6000) track terror that was equally livable on the street.

Anyone truly looking for a track car would choose the 1LE, no questions asked. The two cars really weren't competition nor were they designed to be.

Originally Posted by ST1LE

Seriously just out of curiosity since we are all talking about these cars and packages. I know you are not looking for a all out track car, as you said you would have bought a 1LE.

Are you eyeing the PP2, just waiting to see how it is first? I thought an '18 would be in my garage by now too, but went a somewhat unexpected route since the MT-82 was not replaced with a Tremec.

Just curious what you're looking for in your next Pony Car purchase. Lot's of options for whatever checks people's boxes these days from roomy Dodge's, Sporty AF Camaros, and quite a few new package/upgrades to the '18 GT to try out too. I'm no fan of car manufacturer's.....QUITE the opposite actually. I love cars, hate the BS involved though.

Honestly, my MY16 will likely be my last pony car purchase. My next purchase will likely be something much...much older. I see these cars getting away from their roots in the near future...enough so that I fear the V8's may not make it another 15 years.

And for the record, I have had not one single issue with my MT-82.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I will agree. But I still think that just because the PP1 has proven to be inferior does not mean it isn't the competitor. The PP2 is more capable and can put up more of a fight. But that still doesn't mean it is the actual natural competitor.

You keep on saying this but offer no real answer. If the PP1 continues to be the only real competitor for the 1LE, then what does that make the PP2? And why is the PP2 now optioned very, very similarly to the 1LE with (in all likelihood) similar performance yet not considered a competitor?

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

You'll notice Ford no longer calls these "track packs". Why is that do you think?

So nobody else who falls victim to their bait-and-switch / false advertising / over-promise and under-delivery (choose the best fit) will sue them?

https://jalopnik.com/shelby-gt350-mu...ing-1793541621

I'd think it would just be easier and more rewarding to build a car that can do what people expect it to...

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

Did the A8 not fail to offer adequate cooling for the A8 transmission on the Z06? It seems to me both omitted adequate cooling and therefore, both offer the same warning. I’d venture to say that an adequate cooler would enable the A8 Z06 to safely lap without limitation, would you agree?

Absence of cooling on PP2
o·mis·sion
- something that has been left out or excluded.
- a failure to do something

Overheating in the A8 Z06
lim·i·ta·tion
- a limiting rule or circumstance
- a condition of limited ability

Comprende?

[SSfriendly]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

So nobody else who falls victim to their bait-and-switch / false advertising / over-promise and under-delivery (choose the best fit) will sue them?

https://jalopnik.com/shelby-gt350-mu...ing-1793541621

I'd think it would just be easier and more rewarding to build a car that can do what people expect it to...

The performance pack did EXACTLY what most people needed it to do, hence the 30% take rate. Most of these cars never see the track, and in the past the PP1 was only a $2500 bargain upgrade.

As for the GT350, the idiot buyers new exactly what they were getting into and were too cheap to upgrade to the track pack. They don't deserve a dime.

Originally Posted by hotlap

Absence of cooling on PP2
o·mis·sion
- something that has been left out or excluded.
- a failure to do something

Overheating in the A8 Z06
lim·i·ta·tion
- a limiting rule or circumstance
- a condition of limited ability

Comprende?

Oh, I fully understand. Did GM not have the ability to fix the issue on the MY18 Z06 but instead choose to omit it and place a disclaimer in the owners manual?

Yes, the initial problem was an engineering fail, but they had the opportunity to fix it.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I think Ford got caught with their pants down. They made steady improvements with the S197 Coyote. Then the S550 GT came and instead of setting the bar higher they settled for mediocrity. Chevy set the bar higher than where it was and then jumped over that bar. If Ford had just aimed a little bit higher then the gap would not have been as bad as it was and is. But with all the excuses you and others keep giving them, why would they?

Originally Posted by shaffe

This ^ Ford did settle for what was good enough. GM set their internal goals much higher and bravo for them.

This touches on what I mentioned earlier around the vastly different approaches this generation. I am not sure I can accept that Ford didn't expect GM to come out swinging. The Z28 was proof of how serious GM took track capability, and we all expected the 1LE to come back this generation. Al doesn't hide the fact he wants to push the envelope as far as he can, even encroaching on Corvette territory.

There is no reason or excuse for Ford not expecting this from the GM camp. I think they knew Al was pulling out all the stops, and knew they could not keep up performance wise($ for $) in this generation. Maybe that is due to no cross platform sharing, making improvements to the S550 not feasible in the beginning. I do not have proof, but I think the S550 is a platform that already needs drastic improvements. The GT350's less than impressive performance, the reviews of the PP1 handling are some reasons I feel this way. I think it is more likely they knew all this, and planned their strategy accordingly. Going cheap from the start with tons of incentives on top of that, heavy in to fleet sales, expecting the pricey halo cars to do all the heavy lifting performance wise and selling regardless.

I guess what I am saying, if anything, is Ford was never surprised by anything. They took stock, assessed their limitations, and created a *winning strategy around it.

Winning = selling lots of Mustangs

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

The performance pack did EXACTLY what most people needed it to do, hence the 30% take rate. Most of these cars never see the track, and in the past the PP1 was only a $2500 bargain upgrade.

As for the GT350, the idiot buyers new exactly what they were getting into and were too cheap to upgrade to the track pack. They don't deserve a dime.

No. Sorry - that excuse isn't going to cut it.

"GT350, flat plane crank, super-awesome suspension, top of the line, $49,000, track car - track car - track car."~Ford

No coolers. Fails at the track.

Yet the SS comes standard with those things, even on a base-model 1SS. Not because every single one of them is expected to go to Laguna Seca four times a month...but because they built a well-rounded, capable car that would back up their claims.

It's not the "idiot buyers" for assuming Ford would build something that would do what they said it would do. It's shifty Ford for not telling everyone upfront they'd need the track pack to do it, because otherwise it's a garage queen.


.......

.....

...


But wait, the 2013-2015 SS 1LE didn't have any of those coolers either, and it didn't suffer from such issues...so, I'll toss the whole thing into the "Things that make you go, hmmmmm" category, and continue to regard the Mustang engineers with skepticism.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

Oh, I fully understand. Did GM not have the ability to fix the issue on the MY18 Z06 but instead choose to omit it and place a disclaimer in the owners manual?

Yes, the initial problem was an engineering fail, but they had the opportunity to fix it.

I have personally been involved from the engineering side with trying to solve overheating automatic transmissions on high horsepower class eight trucks. Packaging space is a hard limit and the new ZR1 shows what extents were likely needed to resolve it.

Ford?

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

Honestly, my MY16 will likely be my last pony car purchase. My next purchase will likely be something much...much older. I see these cars getting away from their roots in the near future...enough so that I fear the V8's may not make it another 15 years.

And for the record, I have had not one single issue with my MT-82.

Oh okay, I didn't know you had a '16. Wouldn't upgrade myself if had a '16. Would rather mod it.It is a great platform for that.

I think we all know the end is near for the large displacement V8, and honestly this seems to be a historic time we are living in with huge HP cars off the showroom floor. Not sure it will get much better than this again.

I would love to keep my DCT M3 as my daily, plan to buy an old manual Mopar or Fastback Mustang myself. It may be me, and the fact that all I really want is an awesome manual V8, but I just want a true to its roots muscle car and don't care how fast it is. I grew up with them, and get great joy from them.

Glad to hear you have a trouble free MT-82! The brief experience I had wasn't excellent, just didn't like the feel. I am sure the mods available, such as the clutch spring and MGW shifter would have knocked that out though. I just didn't want to risk it, as the manual was 50% of the reason to buy, with the 7500RPM Coyote being the other 50%.

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

The performance pack did EXACTLY what most people needed it to do, hence the 30% take rate. Most of these cars never see the track, and in the past the PP1 was only a $2500 bargain upgrade.

As for the GT350, the idiot buyers new exactly what they were getting into and were too cheap to upgrade to the track pack. They don't deserve a dime.

They weren't too cheap the tech pack and track pack were mutually exclusive. Also the tech pack was 1000 more than the track pack. Also the 350 transmissions were overheating in the south on the highway in summer. Not on a track, but a public interstate. Unacceptable.

If I were head of Mustang development at Ford PP1 and PP2 would come with trans/diff coolers baseline. PP2 would have cooling ducts for the brakes and the suspension of both cars would have to be completely redone.

"Good enough" isn't anymore.