[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by radz28

While I won't argue against this...

Where did LT4 come from? Z06. ELSD started on the C7 and trickled to Alpha. The 3rd Gen MRC started on Gen V ZL1, and trickled through to CTS-V and Corvette the generations following. 8L90 started in the C7 and trickled down through Alpha and trucks. My point is, GM does the same thing. I think they seem to, perhaps, do it a little better through integration and such. I believe one of the reasons ZL1 is so good is because of the ELSD. GM developed an outstanding 10-speed they could trickle-down to trucks and mainstream but spent a lot of time and resources on a chassis that was polished probably as good as it could be. I think Ford, like it has in the past, just dumps money into the engine (and do a GREAT job) and this DCT, while great (it would seem), that's just thousandths of a second (shift-wise) than the 10R90.

I just think GM did a better job polishing ZL1 better than Ford. Can you imagine if ZL1/E had more power?... Even a de-tuned LT5 with bigger brakes (same size as the GT500) would make this even more interesting, to me. But I digress. I don't think we're going to see a better CAMARO than this generation - at least not in terms of performance. This might be the king of the hill.

I don't see this as a negative. They took high end production parts and technology that were already vetted and integrated to work well together, and then put them into a new very capable and sorted chassis. It's a parts bin car, but not one just thrown together at random.

The consumer gets great performance at a discount price.

[radz28]

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

I don't see this as a negative. They took high end production parts and technology that were already vetted and integrated to work well together, and then put them into a new very capable and sorted chassis. It's a parts bin car, but not one just thrown together at random.

The consumer gets great performance at a discount price.

I'm not suggesting that it is

[minn19]

Originally Posted by radz28

While I won't argue against this...

Where did LT4 come from? Z06. ELSD started on the C7 and trickled to Alpha. The 3rd Gen MRC started on Gen V ZL1, and trickled through to CTS-V and Corvette the generations following. 8L90 started in the C7 and trickled down through Alpha and trucks. My point is, GM does the same thing. I think they seem to, perhaps, do it a little better through integration and such. I believe one of the reasons ZL1 is so good is because of the ELSD. GM developed an outstanding 10-speed they could trickle-down to trucks and mainstream but spent a lot of time and resources on a chassis that was polished probably as good as it could be. I think Ford, like it has in the past, just dumps money into the engine (and do a GREAT job) and this DCT, while great (it would seem), that's just thousandths of a second (shift-wise) than the 10R90.

I just think GM did a better job polishing ZL1 better than Ford. Can you imagine if ZL1/E had more power?... Even a de-tuned LT5 with bigger brakes (same size as the GT500) would make this even more interesting, to me. But I digress. I don't think we're going to see a better CAMARO than this generation - at least not in terms of performance. This might be the king of the hill.

Agreed, every mainstream manufacturer is doing this to save money and they have to to survive. Especially the next couple of years as sales are already declining and the longer term outlook isn't great. The BMW guys are pissed that M isn't doing bespoke S engines anymore. Even they can't afford it.

Can you imagine a stripped/lightweight ZLE with a factory cage/harness setup? Add that to your upgrades and limit production would be extremely cool. Especially if the Camaro is dead after this gen, it would be a hell of a send off.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

I don't see this as a negative. They took high end production parts and technology that were already vetted and integrated to work well together, and then put them into a new very capable and sorted chassis. It's a parts bin car, but not one just thrown together at random.

The consumer gets great performance at a discount price.

Originally Posted by radz28

I'm not suggesting that it is

I've mentioned this before, but after my GT350 experience..........I'll take the reliability of an engine that has basically been around forever over one that is unproven now. I could care less if it is shared across the platforms as long as I'm on the track and not at the dealer service department because of a supposed bespoke/special handbuilt engine.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

One thing that I'll say again that deserves recognition is that in this pairing the B5 (Base GT500) has every advantage over the ZL1. Of note is that the B5 is closer in price to the ZLE and that is when you add in the PDR and Nav on the ZLE. When you think about it, that price difference between the ZL1 and ZLE comes with a substantial increase in performance. So from how I see it, the 500 is really getting not just an advantage but a heavy advantage.

Spot on

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Don't get me wrong, I still want to see the ZL1 in action. But it should not go without mention that in all of these scenarios the Camaro has not once been on equal footing. Even up against Dodge. And so far the ZL1 and C8 have not come in last in anything when Dodge, Ford, and Chevy are all on the same track. They have managed to beat both the B/CF GT500 and HC/RE at what each of those cars were supposed to be built for.

Imagine if for just once, just once, GM had the advantage in just one area. LOL! It wouldn't even be a race. It would be a slaughter. Now imagine if GM had every advantage like the CF5 has enjoyed. ZR1. Would the 500 be able to win at anything in that matchup?
.

The ZLE in the matchups has for sure put up one hell of a showing and shows just how amazing that car really is.

Now you may say this is nitpicky, but GM does on huge advantage in one area that can't be forgotten. Weight. The ZLE is 200 pounds lighter than the CFTP, and almost 600 pounds lighter than the RE. And in the case of the C8 the ME layout advantage and was almost 600 pounds lighter than the 500. Sure the Ford and Doge may have a massive power advantage but they are also carrying a boat load more weight.

Another tip of the cap to GM for being able to make these cars so much lighter than the competition

Originally Posted by ST1LE

Yup, not sure if you're remembering me or someone else that said that. I was recollecting that when i was reading your post. I am sure the GT500 deserves praise for its handling, especially considering it's weight, truly impressive when you think that this thing is over 4200 pounds. For it to even be in discussion with the ZL1 and ZLE in regards to handling is impressive, BUT.....that doesn't mean it is as good as a Camaro, so when it is compared to one it falls short. I think for me it is easy to forget that just because the Camaro is better, doesn't mean the GT500 isn't awesome, but it is why I have such issue with price of the CFTP.

I am not the first to say this, but the CFTP does seem to be a disappointment after all. Someone on M6G said something along the lines of "more just carbon fiber and not so much Track Package." Maybe more tests will show otherwise, but so far it looks pretty bad for the CFTP cars.

Spot on. I do think if you look at it from the outside in, the fact a 2 ton mustang is in the same realm as those cars is impressive.

then you look at the price tag of the CFTP and ehhhh. I said it when the pricing came out, at that price tag the CFTP better put up some otherwordly numbers and it doesn't. If it was priced similarly to the 1LE package, say in the 7500 to even 10K range I think it wouldn't be as bad. It's a 19K option and to me at least so far the juice doesn't seem worth the squeeze.

What the cost reflects to me, is that is what happens when you get caught with your pants down and have to go back to the drawing board. I would bet a healthy sum of money that had Ford planned better or projected better how good the competition would be, it wouldn't be as expensive.

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

I don't see this as a negative. They took high end production parts and technology that were already vetted and integrated to work well together, and then put them into a new very capable and sorted chassis. It's a parts bin car, but not one just thrown together at random.

The consumer gets great performance at a discount price.

Exactly. Mustang guys love to say it's a parts bin car. When you get to pull parts from the corvette, that's a damn good bin to pull from if you ask me. It is also why the Camaro gets a nice price advantage. If teh ZL1 had to have a unique engine and transmission it would be quite a bit more expensive than it is

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by radz28

I'm not suggesting that it is

Fair enough

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Spot on



The ZLE in the matchups has for sure put up one hell of a showing and shows just how amazing that car really is.

Now you may say this is nitpicky, but GM does on huge advantage in one area that can't be forgotten. Weight. The ZLE is 200 pounds lighter than the CFTP, and almost 600 pounds lighter than the RE. And in the case of the C8 the ME layout advantage and was almost 600 pounds lighter than the 500. Sure the Ford and Doge may have a massive power advantage but they are also carrying a boat load more weight.

Another tip of the cap to GM for being able to make these cars so much lighter than the competition



Spot on. I do think if you look at it from the outside in, the fact a 2 ton mustang is in the same realm as those cars is impressive.

then you look at the price tag of the CFTP and ehhhh. I said it when the pricing came out, at that price tag the CFTP better put up some otherwordly numbers and it doesn't. If it was priced similarly to the 1LE package, say in the 7500 to even 10K range I think it wouldn't be as bad. It's a 19K option and to me at least so far the juice doesn't seem worth the squeeze.

What the cost reflects to me, is that is what happens when you get caught with your pants down and have to go back to the drawing board. I would bet a healthy sum of money that had Ford planned better or projected better how good the competition would be, it wouldn't be as expensive.



Exactly. Mustang guys love to say it's a parts bin car. When you get to pull parts from the corvette, that's a damn good bin to pull from if you ask me. It is also why the Camaro gets a nice price advantage. If teh ZL1 had to have a unique engine and transmission it would be quite a bit more expensive than it is

Yea the Corvette bin is the top bin at GM, not a bad deal.

All I care about is that my parts bin truck engine car was put together properly in a proper chassis lol

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

I don't see this as a negative. They took high end production parts and technology that were already vetted and integrated to work well together, and then put them into a new very capable and sorted chassis. It's a parts bin car, but not one just thrown together at random.

The consumer gets great performance at a discount price.

The gen6 Camaro was part of the development plan for all the components that it shared.

I'd guarantee that when Alpha was designed, the Camaro was considered. Same with the LT1 and LT4 engines, eLSD rear, 10-speed transmission, etc.

The gen5 Zeta Camaro was extended in steps as GM emerged from bankruptcy and could justify the progression into higher tier models.

The gen6 Camaro, and all its share components, were planned in their entirety at the beginning to the project.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by hotlap

The gen6 Camaro was part of the development plan for all the components that it shared.

I'd guarantee that when Alpha was designed, the Camaro was considered. Same with the LT1 and LT4 engines, eLSD rear, 10-speed transmission, etc.

The gen5 Zeta Camaro was extended in steps as GM emerged from bankruptcy and could justify the progression into higher tier models.

The gen6 Camaro, and all its share components, were planned in their entirety at the beginning to the project.

Most definitely it was considered and planned for. I would wager Corvette had more input into things like the LT1 and LT4 than camaro did - but not like thats a bad thing lol

[Baldilocks01SS]

....and they still mention what just about every other review of the Camaro mentions. The cheap interior. I keep hoping they will update the materials as some of their current decisions are unforgivable.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by minn19

Agreed, every mainstream manufacturer is doing this to save money and they have to to survive. Especially the next couple of years as sales are already declining and the longer term outlook isn't great. The BMW guys are pissed that M isn't doing bespoke S engines anymore. Even they can't afford it.

Can you imagine a stripped/lightweight ZLE with a factory cage/harness setup? Add that to your upgrades and limit production would be extremely cool. Especially if the Camaro is dead after this gen, it would be a hell of a send off.

Every manufacture is investing all their resources into BEV and autonomous driving technology.

Tesla is now the second most valuable car manufacture (behind Toyota) because investors view them as ready for where the market is going as GM, Ford, BMW, etc. are spending massively to evolve

https://www.barrons.com/articles/tes...to-51579723791

[minn19]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Every manufacture is investing all their resources into BEV and autonomous driving technology.

Tesla is now the second most valuable car manufacture (behind Toyota) because investors view them as ready for where the market is going as GM, Ford, BMW, etc. are spending massively to evolve

https://www.barrons.com/articles/tes...to-51579723791

Yup, agreed.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Every manufacture is investing all their resources into BEV and autonomous driving technology.

Tesla is now the second most valuable car manufacture (behind Toyota) because investors view them as ready for where the market is going as GM, Ford, BMW, etc. are spending massively to evolve

https://www.barrons.com/articles/tes...to-51579723791

If you ask me, self driving cars are the stupidest things ever. Unless a person is disabled or perhaps has a mental disability that prevents them from driving, then it is useless. I enjoy driving my car. It is one of the things I look forward to at the end of a long shift at work...getting into a 650 HP ZL1 and mashing the pedal on my drive home. Just a little rant.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

If you ask me, self driving cars are the stupidest things ever. Unless a person is disabled or perhaps has a mental disability that prevents them from driving, then it is useless. I enjoy driving my car. It is one of the things I look forward to at the end of a long shift at work...getting into a 650 HP ZL1 and mashing the pedal on my drive home. Just a little rant.

We are a dying breed though. Majority of people view cars as appliances now. Hell for a while after college a good chunk of my friends that lived in the city didn't even have a car. They just used Uber or Lyft to get around