[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by newmoon

What review are you referring to? I see the following which include the 2019 A10 SS.

Motortrend
In acceleration testing, the SS automatic performed well. The Camaro posted a 4.1-second 0-60 mph time, matching the result of a 2018 Camaro SS 1LE with a six-speed manual. It was also slightly quicker in the quarter mile at 12.4 seconds at 115.8 mph versus 12.5 seconds at 115.2 mph for the 2018 manual.

Car & Driver
The Camaro's 10-speed gearbox, however, quickly makes you forget the lazy days of the Turbo 350 three-speed slushbox that was often tasked with routing torque to the rear tires of Camaros of yore. Co-developed with Ford, the Camaro SS's $1595 optional transmission is a paradigm of torque-transmitting splendor. It takes the LT1's 455 lb-ft of twist and transmutes it into a solid 3.9-second zero-to-60-mph run and a 12.2-second quarter-mile pass at 118 mph—quicker than examples featuring the standard six-speed manual yet about the same as what the SS could manage with its previous eight-speed automatic.

There was a test where a M6 SS matched the A10 SS 1/4 at 12.2. I'll try to find it. Thought it was C&D I may be wrong

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Shaffe, we've been over this plenty times. It isn't one area where the GT350 fails. It fails everywhere against cars that have less power, cost less, and are lower tier. The GT beats it in the quarter mile. The SLE can beat it around a track. The PP2 had to be handicapped so it wouldn't beat the GT350. The GT350R loses to the ZL1 everywhere. In each case these are cars that are either cheaper or have less HP. What is cheaper than a ZL1 or has less HP that can beat it at anything? The only car that can beat the ZLE and that is cheaper is the ZL1 and they have the same powerplant. The Hellcat was slower than the Viper stock for stock while the Viper was in production. And even then the HC had more HP and TQ. Even if the HC managed to pull off a win it wasn't even close around a track. And comparing different trims of the Viper, still they have the same powerplant. The GT350 is the only car that cannot beat any of it's competitors that are similarly priced at anything except for a HC around a track. And it is the only one that consistently loses to cars with less HP or that are cheaper or in some cases both cheaper and with less HP in every performance category. Nobody in their right mind can look at this info and still conclude that the GT350 is not a failure. Even the R since it can only beat the HC around a track. It loses in every other category to every other car in it's price range. I mean, maybe it can squeak out a win against a 3LT Stingray since it would technically be cheaper. But that's a bit silly. The Shelby is the only car that manages to lose against cars that have less HP and cost less.

Blaq I'm not trying to stir this up more but you keep going on and on about the Shelby losing to everything, I agree with the ZL1 comparison but please post details or links to where it loses to the PP2 and SS 1LE in anything. I don't recall any reviews that came to the conclusion you keep throwing out there?

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by Chadicus

There was a test where a M6 SS matched the A10 SS 1/4 at 12.2. I'll try to find it. Thought it was C&D I may be wrong

The fastest I've seen for the M6 SS is 12.3, which was a C&D long term car.

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Shaffe, we've been over this plenty times. It isn't one area where the GT350 fails. It fails everywhere against cars that have less power, cost less, and are lower tier. The GT beats it in the quarter mile. The SLE can beat it around a track. The PP2 had to be handicapped so it wouldn't beat the GT350. The GT350R loses to the ZL1 everywhere. In each case these are cars that are either cheaper or have less HP. What is cheaper than a ZL1 or has less HP that can beat it at anything? The only car that can beat the ZLE and that is cheaper is the ZL1 and they have the same powerplant. The Hellcat was slower than the Viper stock for stock while the Viper was in production. And even then the HC had more HP and TQ. Even if the HC managed to pull off a win it wasn't even close around a track. And comparing different trims of the Viper, still they have the same powerplant. The GT350 is the only car that cannot beat any of it's competitors that are similarly priced at anything except for a HC around a track. And it is the only one that consistently loses to cars with less HP or that are cheaper or in some cases both cheaper and with less HP in every performance category. Nobody in their right mind can look at this info and still conclude that the GT350 is not a failure. Even the R since it can only beat the HC around a track. It loses in every other category to every other car in it's price range. I mean, maybe it can squeak out a win against a 3LT Stingray since it would technically be cheaper. But that's a bit silly. The Shelby is the only car that manages to lose against cars that have less HP and cost less.

The SLE is slower than the PP2 (lightning lap by 1 second), which means it's obviously slower around a track than the GT350, which is faster than the PP2. Price-wise, the GT350 starts slightly under the ZL1, and the R slightly under the ZLE.

Did you not realize that there are many, many cars that are much more expensive than the R (since the regular GT350 hasn't been tested) that are slower around Lightning lap than the R, and the PP2, for that matter? I use the Lightning lap because that is the best large database, and contains multiple drivers each year, and is going to be the most consistent we get with the shear amount of cars tested. Cars slower than both the R and GT350 (and PP2) include cars like certain GT-R trims, C7 Corvette Stingray (similar price), BMW M4 GTS, Audi R8 V10 plus, Lexus LFA, AME E63S, CTS-V, a 2011 Corvette Z06, BMW M5, 2008 Viper, 2011 Porsche 911 Turbo S, and many, many more. It's hardly a failure when compared to those much more expensive cars. The ZLE is a beast on the track, we all agree, but the R is no slouch or a failure as you make it out to be. If I recall the Z28 had a higher MSRP than the R and made similar times around a track, although from what I've read was more brute than finesse, like the R.

People will pay more for a car for certain features and the way it makes them feel. By your logic, none of those other cars should exist. But obviously, that would be no fun. People want the 350 and R, that's why they will be pay ADM for one, even though they are slower around a track than the ZLE AND more expensive.

I could bolt on a supercharger on my A10 GT PP1 and dust your ZL1 at a drag strip for less money. By your logic, that means your car is a failure. But you would likely respond with you'd rather have the ZL1 and don't care about a cheaper modified GT. The same logic could apply to the GT350 and R. They want the car.

[13vertss]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

The SLE is slower than the PP2 (lightning lap by 1 second), which means it's obviously slower around a track than the GT350, which is faster than the PP2. Price-wise, the GT350 starts slightly under the ZL1, and the R slightly under the ZLE.

Did you not realize that there are many, many cars that are much more expensive than the R (since the regular GT350 hasn't been tested) that are slower around Lightning lap than the R, and the PP2, for that matter? I use the Lightning lap because that is the best large database, and contains multiple drivers each year, and is going to be the most consistent we get with the shear amount of cars tested. Cars slower than both the R and GT350 (and PP2) include cars like certain GT-R trims, C7 Corvette Stingray (similar price), BMW M4 GTS, Audi R8 V10 plus, Lexus LFA, AME E63S, CTS-V, a 2011 Corvette Z06, BMW M5, 2008 Viper, 2011 Porsche 911 Turbo S, and many, many more. It's hardly a failure when compared to those much more expensive cars. The ZLE is a beast on the track, we all agree, but the R is no slouch or a failure as you make it out to be. If I recall the Z28 had a higher MSRP than the R and made similar times around a track, although from what I've read was more brute than finesse, like the R.

People will pay more for a car for certain features and the way it makes them feel. By your logic, none of those other cars should exist. But obviously, that would be no fun. People want the 350 and R, that's why they will be pay ADM for one, even though they are slower around a track than the ZLE AND more expensive.

I could bolt on a supercharger on my A10 GT PP1 and dust your ZL1 at a drag strip for less money. By your logic, that means your car is a failure. But you would likely respond with you'd rather have the ZL1 and don't care about a cheaper modified GT. The same logic could apply to the GT350 and R. They want the car.

The LL is to inconsistent to be counted due to many different drivers. If what you say is true, then you are saying the z28 is faster then the R.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

The 911 GT3 has only 339 ft lbs of torque (and 500 hp) but revs really high (9,000 rpm), and with the dual clutch 7 speed does 0-60 in 3.1 and 1/4 in 11.2 @ 126.6 mph. The manual is a couple of tenths behind. I would imagine it has aggressive gearing to get there, but I doubt anyone is complaining or calling that out as something inferior or "cheating" to get there. I realize you didn't say it's cheating, but I get the feeling that some are implying that by referring to the aggressive gearing of the A10. Maybe I misinterpreted, but that's what I sense.

Anyway, I point that out to say that higher revving engines are different but not necessarily worse than a pushrod small block that makes more low end torque. More of a different flavor. The M6 GT obviously needs more aggressive gearing to makeup for less bottom end torque to help improve its drag times. That wouldn't be cheating, just as the Porsche isn't cheating. It's providing optimum gearing for the chosen engine.

I don’t know why you post the 911 GT3 as an example and then say you don’t know how it’s geared. It weighs 3,150 lbs so lacking torque is less of a factor.

No one. I mean no one here has said drag race mode or gearing is cheating. They are limitations. Requirements. Drag race mode is conditional. You may or my no be in a circumstance to use it. Gearing means lots of shifting. Sucks in a manual and might mean gear hunting in the A10. Lost fuel economy

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Blaq I'm not trying to stir this up more but you keep going on and on about the Shelby losing to everything, I agree with the ZL1 comparison but please post details or links to where it loses to the PP2 and SS 1LE in anything. I don't recall any reviews that came to the conclusion you keep throwing out there?

I said the SLE CAN beat it. I also said the PP2 had to be handicapped so that it wouldn't beat it. Even shaffe agrees that the PP2 had to be handicapped to protect the GT350.

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

The SLE is slower than the PP2 (lightning lap by 1 second), which means it's obviously slower around a track than the GT350, which is faster than the PP2. Price-wise, the GT350 starts slightly under the ZL1, and the R slightly under the ZLE.

Did you not realize that there are many, many cars that are much more expensive than the R (since the regular GT350 hasn't been tested) that are slower around Lightning lap than the R, and the PP2, for that matter? I use the Lightning lap because that is the best large database, and contains multiple drivers each year, and is going to be the most consistent we get with the shear amount of cars tested. Cars slower than both the R and GT350 (and PP2) include cars like certain GT-R trims, C7 Corvette Stingray (similar price), BMW M4 GTS, Audi R8 V10 plus, Lexus LFA, AME E63S, CTS-V, a 2011 Corvette Z06, BMW M5, 2008 Viper, 2011 Porsche 911 Turbo S, and many, many more. It's hardly a failure when compared to those much more expensive cars. The ZLE is a beast on the track, we all agree, but the R is no slouch or a failure as you make it out to be. If I recall the Z28 had a higher MSRP than the R and made similar times around a track, although from what I've read was more brute than finesse, like the R.

People will pay more for a car for certain features and the way it makes them feel. By your logic, none of those other cars should exist. But obviously, that would be no fun. People want the 350 and R, that's why they will be pay ADM for one, even though they are slower around a track than the ZLE AND more expensive.

There was one testing where the SLE came in 6 tenths faster than the PP2. I will try to find it later if I feel like it.

The cars I am talking about are all in the Big Three and are all competitors from the past few decades.

GTR will absolutely destroy the GT350R. The M5 is a 10 sec quarter mile car, has 4 doors, AWD, and is a luxury vehicle with more options than the GT350R can dream of. I'd like to see the outcome of a Stingray against a GT350. I'd put my money that a GS will beat the GT350R. The R8 is a 10 sec quarter mile car and also is a luxury vehicle. And all the other vehicles have something that makes them worth their MSRP even if they might lose to the GT350R around a track. That would also depend on which track they go to. So I cannot take any of your examples seriously.

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

I could bolt on a supercharger on my A10 GT PP1 and dust your ZL1 at a drag strip for less money. By your logic, that means your car is a failure. But you would likely respond with you'd rather have the ZL1 and don't care about a cheaper modified GT. The same logic could apply to the GT350 and R. They want the car.

Well you're right about one thing, I do not care about a cheaper modified GT. And I doubt that your car with just a supercharger would be enough to beat my ZL1 in the quarter mile. You'd need tires, suspension/axles, etc. Factor in that my car comes standard fully optioned. A similarly optioned GT would be in the high $40K to low $50K range. And you still would not have the extra cost of options like PDR and sunroof like I have on my car. But I'm willing to call it a wash. Let's say $50K for a similarly optioned GT. Blower, tune, suspension work, etc would be an extra $8K to $10K at least. So you're at $58K with no warranty. LOL!! MSRP on my car was $69K but that included other shit like battery tender, car cover, and a few other items. Without all the extras my Z would have been around $64K. But hey, I love my options. So about $11K difference ($5K without all the extras on my Z and about $2K difference if you bought a warranty with your "blower") but my ZL1 will spank your GT around a track, will retain much more value, still has way more options, has a full warranty with it, and it's a ZL1. LOL!! And even with those mods to your car there is still a chance you'd lose in the quarter if I chose to really put some effort into it. Don't be fooled by YT videos...I've seen plenty of supercharged GTs at my track in the Summer months that could not break mid 11s. I think the fastest was an 11.5 and that was with a PD blower and DRs along with other mods.

Trust me, I priced out how much it would cost to mod my 15 GT Premium. I paid $40K for that car. And after pricing out all the mods I wanted to do to it I was right at the door step of a used Z06 or a new ZL1. I think my mod list came out to around $12K and that wasn't even with everything I wanted. And I wouldn't have a warranty if I modded. That is why I chose to buy my ZL1. The extra few thousand dollars in price vs modding a GT was well worth it.

Oh, and my ZL1 can do 200 MPH...so there's that

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Chadicus

There was a test where a M6 SS matched the A10 SS 1/4 at 12.2. I'll try to find it. Thought it was C&D I may be wrong

I recall this one

GT A10
0-60 : 3.8 sec
1/4: 12.1 @ 120

SS A10
0-60: 3.9
1/4: 12.2 @ 118

GT M6
0-60: 4.3 sec
1/4: 12.6 @ 115

SS M6
0-60: 4.0 sec
1/4: 12.2 @ ?

The 10-speed GT rocketed to 60 mph in 3.8 seconds versus the manual's 4.3, and it shaved half a second off the quarter-mile run, posting a 12.1 at 120 mph compared to a 12.6 at 115 mph. While the 455-hp Camaro SS with the six-speed manual bettered the similar GT with 4.0- and 12.2-second figures, the automatic Ford outpaced the 2019 Chevy with a very similar 10-speed by a tenth both to 60 mph and through the quarter, and also had a 2-mph-faster trap speed.
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...n-performance/

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by 13vertss

The LL is to inconsistent to be counted due to many different drivers. If what you say is true, then you are saying the z28 is faster then the R.

Except in the Z28 vs R case Motor Trend did a same day same driver (Randy Pobst) comparison, and the R was decidingly faster around the track and in the 1/4 mile. We don't have head to heads for many of those cars so LL is the best example we can use. And IMO more drivers is better, since they take the fastest time from the group.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by 13vertss

The LL is to inconsistent to be counted due to many different drivers. If what you say is true, then you are saying the z28 is faster then the R.

Exactly

2016 Ford Mustang Shelby GT350R, 2:51.8 - Lightning Lap

2015 Chevrolet Camaro Z/28, 2:50.9 - Lightning Lap

The conclusion from the PP2 Lighting Lap article clears up how the 1LE compares to the PP2

it's clear that the Performance Pack Level 2 is Ford's way of making sure the Camaro 1LE doesn't run off with the roses while the Mustang is still kicking up dirt on the track. To that end, it succeeds and frankly, in terms of track prowess, is far more accomplished than we could have imagined. Still, it trails the Camaro SS 1LE in terms of almost-supernatural reserves of dynamic capability.

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Exactly

2016 Ford Mustang Shelby GT350R, 2:51.8 - Lightning Lap

2015 Chevrolet Camaro Z/28, 2:50.9 - Lightning Lap

The conclusion from the PP2 Lighting Lap article clears up how the 1LE compares to the PP2

See my post above regarding Z28 vs R. Same day same track certainly trumps lightning lap. Ok, the PP2 didn't feel as amazing in lightning lap, but still went quicker. I think in the head to head PP2 vs 1LE the SS was quicker in the MT figure 8, I can't remember if they did track time in that comparison. So I'll give you that.

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by hotlap

I recall this one

GT A10
0-60 : 3.8 sec
1/4: 12.1 @ 120

SS A10
0-60: 3.9
1/4: 12.2 @ 118

GT M6
0-60: 4.3 sec
1/4: 12.6 @ 115

SS M6
0-60: 4.0 sec
1/4: 12.2 @ ?

Thank you.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

See my post above regarding Z28 vs R. Same day same track certainly trumps lightning lap. Ok, the PP2 didn't feel as amazing in lightning lap, but still went quicker. I think in the head to head PP2 vs 1LE the SS was quicker in the MT figure 8, I can't remember if they did track time in that comparison. So I'll give you that.

See yoir own post above regarding same day same track.

Ford can’t touch this. The greatest value on earth and the star of the Alpha Camaros ...IMO

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I said the SLE CAN beat it. I also said the PP2 had to be handicapped so that it wouldn't beat it. Even shaffe agrees that the PP2 had to be handicapped to protect the GT350.

There was one testing where the SLE came in 6 tenths faster than the PP2. I will try to find it later if I feel like it.

The cars I am talking about are all in the Big Three and are all competitors from the past few decades.

GTR will absolutely destroy the GT350R. The M5 is a 10 sec quarter mile car, has 4 doors, AWD, and is a luxury vehicle with more options than the GT350R can dream of. I'd like to see the outcome of a Stingray against a GT350. I'd put my money that a GS will beat the GT350R. The R8 is a 10 sec quarter mile car and also is a luxury vehicle. And all the other vehicles have something that makes them worth their MSRP even if they might lose to the GT350R around a track. That would also depend on which track they go to. So I cannot take any of your examples seriously.

Well you're right about one thing, I do not care about a cheaper modified GT. And I doubt that your car with just a supercharger would be enough to beat my ZL1 in the quarter mile. You'd need tires, suspension/axles, etc. Factor in that my car comes standard fully optioned. A similarly optioned GT would be in the high $40K to low $50K range. And you still would not have the extra cost of options like PDR and sunroof like I have on my car. But I'm willing to call it a wash. Let's say $50K for a similarly optioned GT. Blower, tune, suspension work, etc would be an extra $8K to $10K at least. So you're at $58K with no warranty. LOL!! MSRP on my car was $69K but that included other shit like battery tender, car cover, and a few other items. Without all the extras my Z would have been around $64K. But hey, I love my options. So about $11K difference ($5K without all the extras on my Z and about $2K difference if you bought a warranty with your "blower") but my ZL1 will spank your GT around a track, will retain much more value, still has way more options, has a full warranty with it, and it's a ZL1. LOL!! And even with those mods to your car there is still a chance you'd lose in the quarter if I chose to really put some effort into it. Don't be fooled by YT videos...I've seen plenty of supercharged GTs at my track in the Summer months that could not break mid 11s. I think the fastest was an 11.5 and that was with a PD blower and DRs along with other mods.

Trust me, I priced out how much it would cost to mod my 15 GT Premium. I paid $40K for that car. And after pricing out all the mods I wanted to do to it I was right at the door step of a used Z06 or a new ZL1. I think my mod list came out to around $12K and that wasn't even with everything I wanted. And I wouldn't have a warranty if I modded. That is why I chose to buy my ZL1. The extra few thousand dollars in price vs modding a GT was well worth it.

Oh, and my ZL1 can do 200 MPH...so there's that

On my phone so can't type a full response, but I get not wanting to race civics and hot hatches, but Mustang is the Camaro's closest competitor. You have an elitist attitude toward other pony car owners. You'll act proud of that, but it's really, really lame.