[Clin5910]

The pp1 is definitely comparable to the 1le. They're both performance pack versions of the gt and ss. But they're not on the same level and if anyone thinks the pp2 will somehow magically match the 1le you're nuts. So if Ford really wanted to make a competitor for the 1le it would come with coolers and warranty for track use.

[SSfriendly]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

Agreed. The only reason we are comparing them, is because Ford has given us no choice.....yet.

Everyone knows the closest comparison to the 1LE is and has been the GT350, but Ford has only allowed the 1LE to compete with the PP1 so far. Ford has its reasons, but I think in the end the reason it is because the 1LE is too competitive considering the price gap, a comparison like that would look TERRIBLE for Ford.

Very excited to see the results of the H2H with the PP2, I just cannot figure out why GM and Ford are on such different pages. It has taken forever for the PP2 to come out, GM released the 1LE is the 2nd MY.

PP2 on the surface seems like the true rival or apples to apples to the 1LE, but I think the GT350 will prove to be more consistent competition. The 1LE comes fully equipped to handle track days, but the PP2 not so much sans coolers. Of course it is yet to be seen if limp mode is an issue, but we would be silly to think it wont be considering the 15-16 GT350 Tech Pack debacle.

I just don't get it. It has 305 Sport Cup 2's FFS......not exactly a daily driver's dream, so why no damn coolers for track duty? Is Ford that cheap? Is the margin that small? I cannot think of a reason tbh.

That's because Ford management didn't care about competing with the 1LE. They produced the PP1 knowing it wasn't going to match up. Hell, it took a prideful effort by engineers to create the PP2 in hopes of competing with the 1LE.

As for limp mode issues, keep in mind the PP2 has a different transmission than the GT350. It is quite possible that the Getrag transmission may not have the same cooling issues as the Tremec.

I don't disagree, coolers should have been standard...but if I were a betting man, this is entirely a bean counter issue. They were likely given a budget they weren't able to exceed.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

That's because Ford management didn't care about competing with the 1LE. They produced the PP1 knowing it wasn't going to match up. Hell, it took a prideful effort by engineers to create the PP2 in hopes of competing with the 1LE.

As for limp mode issues, keep in mind the PP2 has a different transmission than the GT350. It is quite possible that the Getrag transmission may not have the same cooling issues as the Tremec.

I don't disagree, coolers should have been standard...but if I were a betting man, this is entirely a bean counter issue. They were likely given a budget they weren't able to exceed.

Yeah, that is true. Different transmission and engine, so assuming entirely based on GT350 would be a mistake. I don't you know what Ford management WANTED to do. Suffice to agree they didn't. Want to or not will always be debated.

It appears from all the evidence I have seen, it could be driven by 1 of 2 things maybe. The margin on these cars quickly shrinks when upgrades are added. Car for car, dollar for dollar....it costs a lot more to get GM level performance from a Ford.

That or being that the cars sell very anyway, so Ford doesn't care about doing what should be done. Either way, sucks for the consumer whether they know it or not.

In the end of the day, ANYONE who will be tracking the car seriously will want coolers. Whether it limp modes or not, it cant be good for longevity.

Time will tell, but still VERY excited to see PP2 H2H...finally a rivalry worth arguing about.

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

That's because Ford management didn't care about competing with the 1LE. They produced the PP1 knowing it wasn't going to match up. Hell, it took a prideful effort by engineers to create the PP2 in hopes of competing with the 1LE.

As for limp mode issues, keep in mind the PP2 has a different transmission than the GT350. It is quite possible that the Getrag transmission may not have the same cooling issues as the Tremec.

I don't disagree, coolers should have been standard...but if I were a betting man, this is entirely a bean counter issue. They were likely given a budget they weren't able to exceed.

The rear differential will overheat as well. And yes the Getrag will get too hot. People have seen this on the 16-17 with track duty. Absolutely the bean-counters influenced the PP2. They also ruined the 350 tech pack by not putting coolers on that car.

That aside, the PP2 might beat the base SS around a track considering the SS is still a second faster than the PP1. How long can you track it is the question.

A 2018 PP2 premium is already pushing close to 50k. To have to add aftermarket coolers on top of that is asking too much I think. I will say though that the PP2 in dark grey is sexy as hell.

[SSfriendly]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

Yeah, that is true. Different transmission and engine, so assuming entirely based on GT350 would be a mistake. I don't you know what Ford management WANTED to do. Suffice to agree they didn't. Want to or not will always be debated.

It appears from all the evidence I have seen, it could be driven by 1 of 2 things maybe. The margin on these cars quickly shrinks when upgrades are added. Car for car, dollar for dollar....it costs a lot more to get GM level performance from a Ford.

That or being that the cars sell very anyway, so Ford doesn't care about doing what should be done. Either way, sucks for the consumer whether they know it or not.

In the end of the day, ANYONE who will be tracking the car seriously will want coolers. Whether it limp modes or not, it cant be good for longevity.

Time will tell, but still VERY excited to see PP2 H2H...finally a rivalry worth arguing about.

I think Ford knew the take rate on the MY15-17 power pack being 30% had a direct influence on what the PP1 became. Shift the options and price up too high and sales drop significantly. My guess is, they wanted to milk as many profits from the PP1 as possible, hence the lower pricepoint and performance.

Nearly everything added to the PP2 costs more money. Bigger wheels, bigger swaybars, track ready tires etc. If Ford had released the PP2 as it's only option, they would have been pissing away money on each buyer that didn't really want to track their car...but only wanted the unique wheels, brembo brakes etc. I can't blame them for their decision.

My personal opinion is...if I was looking for a track first, weekend second vehicle the 1LE would be top of my list. As it stands, myself (like most others) are looking for a daily driver first vehicle. The 1LE and PP2 are always going to be a lower production (lower profitability) vehicles.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Clin5910

The pp1 is definitely comparable to the 1le. They're both performance pack versions of the gt and ss. But they're not on the same level and if anyone thinks the pp2 will somehow magically match the 1le you're nuts.

Nobody is trying to claim complete parity quite yet; that'll have to wait for the comparisons. I hope to see both H2H and LL comparisons.

As far as I'm concerned, the PP2 (or most of it, anyway) is what the PP1 should have been from the get-go, instead of the baby step that the PP1 ended up being.

Or, a little like the 5th gen's FE4 being what the FE3 should have been right out of the gate.


Norm

[ULTRAZLS1]

So in the end it’s smart and more profitable to not give consumers the best car they can provide for the money? I suppose. But that’s weak as hell imo

I expect more than that from the company I’m buying from. It’s really funny these ford guys give ford every excuse.

They got to buy a pp2 to beat a base SS. Ford=smart and I’m proud of them. Lol ok. Enjoy getting your ass whipped.

The second a base GT competes with a base SS these arguments will disappear

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

That's because Ford management didn't care about competing with the 1LE. They produced the PP1 knowing it wasn't going to match up. Hell, it took a prideful effort by engineers to create the PP2 in hopes of competing with the 1LE.

As for limp mode issues, keep in mind the PP2 has a different transmission than the GT350. It is quite possible that the Getrag transmission may not have the same cooling issues as the Tremec.

I don't disagree, coolers should have been standard...but if I were a betting man, this is entirely a bean counter issue. They were likely given a budget they weren't able to exceed.

Bean counter issue yes, you can only do so much with the dollars you have. I don't think that the PP1 was ever considered to be a track car by Ford, it was just something sporty for the street. The PP2 yes it should be more track capable but again I don't think Ford considers it a track car.

If you want a Track Car from Ford buy the GT350 for a few thousand more, rather than buy a GT for 50k+ only to have it worth 35k or less in a year.

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Nobody is trying to claim complete parity quite yet; that'll have to wait for the comparisons. I hope to see both H2H and LL comparisons.

As far as I'm concerned, the PP2 (or most of it, anyway) is what the PP1 should have been from the get-go, instead of the baby step that the PP1 ended up being.

Or, a little like the 5th gen's FE4 being what the FE3 should have been right out of the gate.


Norm

I think the base GT should have the PP1 suspension but with all season tires. The PP1 should have the PP2 suspension, but with the Pilot Sport 4S tires, and the PP2 should have an even more aggressive suspension with the Sport Cup 2's and coolers.

That way, you could get the Base GT for daily drivers who just want a V8, the PP1 for folks who want grippy summer tires and a tied down ride, the the PP2 is for track rats with the most aggressive rubber and coolers for track duty.

[SSfriendly]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

I think the base GT should have the PP1 suspension but with all season tires. The PP1 should have the PP2 suspension, but with the Pilot Sport 4S tires, and the PP2 should have an even more aggressive suspension with the Sport Cup 2's and coolers.

That way, you could get the Base GT for daily drivers who just want a V8, the PP1 for folks who want grippy summer tires and a tied down ride, the the PP2 is for track rats with the most aggressive rubber and coolers for track duty.

And then you miss out on all of the baby boomers who feel the base suspension is too firm (and yes, there are quite a few).

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

And then you miss out on all of the baby boomers who feel the base suspension is too firm (and yes, there are quite a few).

I don't see too many baby boomers in GTs. Vettes and Shelbys yes but a base GT? I don't see that here where I live.

[ST1LE]

I struggle to follow when people say a car equipped with Sport Cup 2's isn't supposed to be a track car.

Really? R-comp tires on a street car was Ford's plan? I think it more likely Ford once again failed to equip a track car with coolers, than they think a Mustang with R-Comp tires is a street car.

[SSfriendly]

Originally Posted by Chadicus

I don't see too many baby boomers in GTs. Vettes and Shelbys yes but a base GT? I don't see that here where I live.

I see many in EB and GTs alike...actually, more so than anyone under 50.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Bean counter issue yes, you can only do so much with the dollars you have. I don't think that the PP1 was ever considered to be a track car by Ford, it was just something sporty for the street. The PP2 yes it should be more track capable but again I don't think Ford considers it a track car.

If you want a Track Car from Ford buy the GT350 for a few thousand more, rather than buy a GT for 50k+ only to have it worth 35k or less in a year.

The gap is more like $10,000 isn't it? I thought a fully equipped PP2 was just over $50K? Is it more than I thought? Fully equipped GT350 is over $61K.