[13vertss]

Originally Posted by Chadicus

How 350Rs? Comparing the base 350 to the ZLE is a bit misleading.

These guys keep quoting times and accolades from the 350R, then generalize that it means all the GT 350’s.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Scottyz

Yeah. So, how many average buyers are buying ZLE’s? Not many.
How many average buyers are buying GT350s never mind the R model. Not many. How about the Hellcat? Not many average buyers there either.
The far majority of these cars are bought by enthusiasts who realize there are compromises.
How comfortable do you think the ride is in a GT3 Porsche?
Do you think people who purchase those are average buyers?

Average buyers are in the SS, GT, and R/T trims. Fewer buyers are in SRT8s and GT350s. Even fewer are in Hellcats, ZL1s, and GT350Rs. The Mustang guys on here are in the first group. Far more of us Camaro owners are in the 2nd and third groups. There are sacrifices. But the performance outweighs that. The guys on this forum who have the ZLE, some of them say it is a rough ride while others are fine with it. I have yet to see one person who is disappointed in their purchase.

Originally Posted by 13vertss

These guys keep quoting times and accolades from the 350R, then generalize that it means all the GT 350’s.

Not one of them own either car anyway...

[DevilsReject97]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

Ok, then the quotes from Motor Trend should settle it. The GT350R is a better driving and sportier car than the ZL1. The base GT does not come close to out performing it.

I have not been to the track, and have said in past posts. But I don't act like it's the only thing that matters. I have in fact stated the reasons why I chose the GT over the SS and Challengers and track performance was not one of them.

The GT350R is a very good car on the track, it's what it is designed for....but it costs more than a grand tourer like the ZL1 and still loses to it...even when it weighs less.

Also, as I recall, much the same was said about the Z/28 when it was released when it was compared to the GT500. The only difference was that this time, the ZL1 didn't lose...

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

It wasn't close when all things are considered. Everything the GT350R sacrificed, all the expensive features, the MSRP, the issues it has, and then it not only gets destroyed in the quarter mile, but it also loses in the one area where it was built to be the ultimate machine against a cheaper competitor that was not built as a track car. The only cars that can beat the ZL1 at anything all cost way more money. The GT350 loses to cars that cost much less in every performance category. It loses to the GT in the quarter mile. It loses to the ZL1 around a track. The only thing it can beat around a track is the GT and Hellcat, lol!! And even then the PP2 had to be crippled by Ford so that it wouldn't beat the GT350 too. WTF is it good for then? So value per dollar, the GT350R and non-R are the absolute worst cars you can purchase. And the fact that they had markups means an even less value for dollar. Tell me, how much would you have to spend to buy a vehicle that can beat a ZL1 at anything??

Some people just never understand bud... you won't make them see it..

[GossipSquirrelJelena]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Ok. You doubt I have these cars? Facade? $5,000 right here and right now. $5,000 bet says that I have all 3 of these cars in my profile pic. 2017 ZL1, 2017 Hellcat, 2012 X5 50i. I will post a video or pic with my S/N, the date and time, and whatever else you need as proof. Or feel free to come see for yourself. I'll give you a neutral place to meet me and I'll have all three vehicles there. Bring as many of your friends as you want if you have any worries. I'll be there by myself with my vehicles. For the record, you aren't the first person to question me and you won't be the first one to back down. Just make sure you have the money because I'll be taking it. Otherwise, pipe down.

I don't care if you ran 11.59, 11.89, 12 flat, or whatever. You and your car are beneath me. A silly quarter mile run doesn't change that. I had a $40K 2015 GT and I ditched it because I thought it was a POS, I was disappointed in those cars and their performance or lack of performance, and because I deserved better than anything Ford made at that point and anything they make now. So congrats on your 11.59 if it means that much to you. Nobody here cares.

GM from the start stated what the ZLE was. It was not meant to be a DD and they told people that straight out. It was built to be a track car that sacrifices comfort for performance. The ones who bought it and complained clearly did not pay attention. However there are plenty others who DD this car and have commented that the ride is not as bad as it was made out to be. An enthusiast will gladly sacrifice comfort for performance. The payout is worth it to them. And most of the people who buy it would have another vehicle that they use as a DD. The ZLe would be a secondary vehicle. So GM did the right thing.

And you know, you came over here from wherever the hell you were and this is the place you ended up at. Not one of us goes over to other forums and engages their long time members and then calls them "all bark, no bite clowns". Regardless of your disdain for us, you came here and engaged with us. We didn't bring you here, invite you here, or ask you to come here. Yet despite our dislike of the Mustang, none of us has disrespected you personally. Nobody has called you any names. We disagree with you and debate you. But we have not insulted you personally nor said anything negative about you. We have even shown much respect to our Mustang members like shaffe, newmoon, and some others even when we fight tooth and nails. So you are very out of line with your comment. And that says a lot about the kind of person you are and the kind of people that are on M6G or wherever you're from.

Haha I got $5000 that say I'd bust your ass. If you every had the balls to show up.

[DevilsReject97]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Effort to get this thread back on track...

Yesterday I posted what a link with a MSRP of $70K. At that price, what should be expected of the GT500. If that is the price then it will be the same as a ZLE. Given that Ford has had many more years to develop this car and had a ZL1 to benchmark, should we expect it to beat the ZLE around a track? I'm personally will not be impressed if it beats the Zs in a straight line. Building a quarter mile car is easy these days and requires no real skill. Building a track car and operating it to it's max potential tho requires much more skill. If Ford settles for beating the Zs in a straight line then that is just lazy. Showing it's prowess on a track will be more impressive.

I doubt the GT500 will beat the Ring time of the ZLE. I do believe it will come close though. Like around 07:25 or so...

Remember, HP simply isn't enough to get the job done. The 755 HP ZR1 was only a few seconds faster than the ZLE, and that was despite having 105 HP more...and it costs roughly twice what a ZLE costs...

There are only two American made cars to ever make a Ring lap faster than a Camaro...and both were each companies respective Halo cars....

[DevilsReject97]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Building a track car that sacrifices all street performance to meet a posted Ring time is exactly what I hope Ford avoids. The car needs to be well balanced like the ZL1 but much faster.

Good luck with that...even the ZR1 struggled to beat the ZLE's time..

Also, the ZLE's unofficially ran a 7:13 time...so that really shows you how well the car has run...

Throwing more power at the car without the sheer amount of downforce needed is an issue the GT500 won't be able to overcome..

Originally Posted by hotlap

Do you think the “average buyer” will want to “live with” the Voodoo engine in a “street car”?

• Consuming a quart of oil every 500 miles.
• No power until the engine is above 4,000 rpm. Not easy to operate a street car rpm
• Serious longevity concerns while under warranty ...much less post.

Those concerns affect the R and non-R. I’d rather have the ZLE as a street/track car

I would rather have any number of cars than deal with that...hell I'd take a Dodge Neon over having to deal with that...

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by Scottyz

What would you suggest would balance out a ZLE? What street performance was sacrificed?
Please elaborate.

Comments in regards to the Zl1-1LE street manners.

MotorTrend

"Let's get the bad news out of the way. As a result of the decision to hard-mount the dampers to the car—and this is me being charitable—ride quality is not great. Being less kind—especially if you're on ripped up, lumpy pavement—the ZL1 1LE's ride flat-out sucks. It's brutal, and over big bumps at speed, the rear end seems to run out of travel."

"I know Jonny loves this car, but I just can't warm to it. Probably because I've lost all my fillings, and my kidneys are bruised. With the exception of the best roads, the ride in this Camaro is punishing. I've encountered smoother paint mixers."

Automobile

"But certain compromises come along with that impressive pace. Stone tires made by a caveman would offer more grip than the bespoke track-focused Goodyear rubber when cold, and the stiff springs paired with the Multimatic DSSV dampers turn the ZL1 1LE into a pogo stick on the road. Additionally, the throttle connected to the supercharged V-8 is ultra-aggressive, and the steering, though adjustable, is weighted for the arms of a Spandex-garnished pro wrestler."

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Comments in regards to the Zl1-1LE street manners.

MotorTrend

"Let's get the bad news out of the way. As a result of the decision to hard-mount the dampers to the car—and this is me being charitable—ride quality is not great. Being less kind—especially if you're on ripped up, lumpy pavement—the ZL1 1LE's ride flat-out sucks. It's brutal, and over big bumps at speed, the rear end seems to run out of travel."

"I know Jonny loves this car, but I just can't warm to it. Probably because I've lost all my fillings, and my kidneys are bruised. With the exception of the best roads, the ride in this Camaro is punishing. I've encountered smoother paint mixers."

What is your point exactly? We know the ZLE is stiff. We know it sucks as a DD. I don't know of anyone who has one and wishes they didn't.

But when I find 2017 GT350s going on their 4th owner on Cargurus with only 8k miles it makes me question you Mustang fan's sanity. I personally would rather drive Fred Flintstone's car than add a quart of oil to a GT350 every 500 miles.

Every single Mustang available has some kind of major disappointing factor that I and the rest of us on this forum wont deal with: GT350 drinks oil and the Voodoo engine is suspect, the PP2 doesn't have coolers and the MT-82 transmission is complete shit, PP1 to quote your boy from MT, "the front and back ends dont feel connected " the 5.0 ticks like 1960s typewriter. You dont even own and have never owned an S550 Mustang lol.

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by GossipSquirrelJelena

Haha I got $5000 that say I'd bust your ass. If you every had the balls to show up.

You sound like one of those guys who brags about his bench press all the time or the TD passes he threw in the City Championship game in high school.

No one here cares about your modded 15 GT or your times at your local drag strip.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by Chadicus

What is your point exactly? We know the ZLE is stiff. We know it sucks as a DD. I don't know of anyone who has one and wishes they didn't.

But when I find 2017 GT350s going on their 4th owner on Cargurus with only 8k miles it makes me question you Mustang fan's sanity. I personally would rather drive Fred Flintstone's car than add a quart of oil to a GT350 every 500 miles.

Every single Mustang available has some kind of major disappointing factor that I and the rest of us on this forum wont deal with: GT350 drinks oil and the Voodoo engine is suspect, the PP2 doesn't have coolers and the MT-82 transmission is complete shit, PP1 to quote your boy from MT, "the front and back ends dont feel connected " the 5.0 ticks like 1960s typewriter. You dont even own and have never owned an S550 Mustang lol.

MotorTrend's comments are brutal and really paint the picture of the sacrifices it takes to run these impressive lap times. Everyone here keeps harping on the GT500 is a failure if it doesn't match or beat the ZLE's time. Based on the above MotorTrend's comments if that type of punishment is what is required to beat the ZLE's times the sacrifice it is not worth it IMO for a street car. The comments weren't well it has a stiff ride, they went much further than that.

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by newmoon

MotorTrend's comments are brutal and really paint the picture of the sacrifices it takes to run these impressive lap times. Everyone here keeps harping on the GT500 is a failure if it doesn't match or beat the ZLE's time. Based on the above MotorTrend's comments if that type of punishment is what is required to beat the ZLE's times the sacrifice it is not worth it IMO for a street car. The comments weren't well it has a stiff ride, they went much further than that.

Does the ZR1 have a poor ride quality? Because it is faster than the ZLE.

[DevilsReject97]

Originally Posted by Chadicus

Does the ZR1 have a poor ride quality? Because it is faster than the ZLE.

No, but it also has 105 more HP and costs twice as much.. I would hope it would be faster..

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Ethanolic

Well what I do know is that 17,800 GT350’s have been produced not including the 2019 MY and like you said every one of them would have those supposed issue you listed. So apparently it is easier to live with the GT350 than it is with the ZLE.

Bottom line: Driving a engine between 4,000 and 8,200 rpm on a track would be cool. Driving it on the street ...not so much. Below 4,000 rpm the Voodoo has nothing (no satisfaction). Add its fragile design, oil consumption and vibration ...no thank you.

ZLE - rough ride but 650 hp / 650 lb-ft, robust design.

Both the ZLE and GT350 are designed for the track but can also be driven on the street. Its a matter of personal preference.

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by DevilsReject97

No, but it also has 105 more HP and costs twice as much.. I would hope it would be faster..

I'm just saying that the ZR1 is similar in HP and weight so the argument that the 500 cant beat a ZLE because "ride quality will suffer" isn't going to hold water.