[SpeedIsLife]

The Z/28 and the GT350R both have their own special, unique elements..it's not fair to mark either down based on their unique equipment choices. Likewise, both are extreme bargains for the price, I just think the Z/28 suffered from a bit of sticker shock at the time.

Six of one, half dozen of the other.

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

The Z/28 and the GT350R both have their own special, unique elements..it's not fair to mark either down based on their unique equipment choices. Likewise, both are extreme bargains for the price, I just think the Z/28 suffered from a bit of sticker shock at the time.

Six of one, half dozen of the other.

I would agree. Now with the GT350R and ZO6...Doesn't seem as crazy as then.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

[90503]

The 5thGen Z/28 put all the others on notice that Chevy is a serious player....A 6thGen Z/28 will get more attention and credibility thanks to the ground-work done by the 5thGen...It is a worth-while marketing tool, not just for US show-rooms, but for global competition and sales....

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by shaffe

True they didn't use CC brakes but they used Carbon Fiber wheels, which as far as I can recall is a first and the largest flat plane crank V-8 ever put in a production vehicle.

Yes, the wheels were a first, and new territory.

As much as people hate to admit it, the flat plane crank is nothing new...in fact it's very, very old - the GT350 is just a unique application of it. And I tend to find just as many people that think it's a stupid idea as I do people who would marry it.

The Z/28 used some very expensive technology to overcome the weight of the Zeta platform to get it to be where it was. Thin rear glass, etc...small-production items like that are outrageously expensive. And it showed in the price...

But my intention is not to put either car down. Both serve the same purpose to each company - they're experiments at pushing the limits of performance from their respective platforms. They're not meant to be high production, and they're not meant to be affordable.

Originally Posted by 90503

FWIW, I recall several early Z/28 buyers who were very familiar with tracking and other makes. They couldn't believe what a bargain the Z/28 was compared to Porsche and others as well as what the aftermarket even charged for various components....

The 5thGen Z/28 was the bargain of all time. There may be some Joe Six-Pack Camaro buyers who think the Z/28 is an overpriced Camaro, but not any track rats who were familiar with the costs associated with foreign make track-cars.....The only thing that would make complaining about the price stop is if they didn't make the Z/28 at all....and that's not going to happen....The Z/28 competes with cars that are twice the price, not against entry level Camaro street models....

+1

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

The Z/28 and the GT350R both have their own special, unique elements..it's not fair to mark either down based on their unique equipment choices. Likewise, both are extreme bargains for the price, I just think the Z/28 suffered from a bit of sticker shock at the time.

Six of one, half dozen of the other.

+1

Originally Posted by SuperSound

I would agree. Now with the GT350R and ZO6...Doesn't seem as crazy as then.

It's only going to go up from here....handling, weight reduction, and aero are going to be the next frontier...

[Thor142]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

A fair point.

Just factor in that the GT350R didn't make use of expensive (and experimental) DSSV dampers, or the CC brakes. Ford knew what they were doing when they built that thing, and they wanted to bring it in at a lower price point. Chevy was using the Z/28 as a test-bed.

DSSV dampers were introduced in 2002. While not widely used in passenger car applications they were by no means experimental in 2013 or whenever the Z/28 was in development. I just think some people make excuses for the stratospheric price of the Z/28. I think the GT350R is a great comparison. It bested the Z/28 for a LOT less money.
Then again from what I've read recently GM's business model is to make more on each car instead of in volume sales SO maybe they're expecting to make $10,000 ea off 2000 units instead of $2000 ea. off 5000 units. (just an example) If that works for them I guess thats fine. Just makes me sad that the higher prices keep me out of the best cars.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by 90503

FWIW, I recall several early Z/28 buyers who were very familiar with tracking and other makes. They couldn't believe what a bargain the Z/28 was compared to Porsche and others as well as what the aftermarket even charged for various components....

The 5thGen Z/28 was the bargain of all time. There may be some Joe Six-Pack Camaro buyers who think the Z/28 is an overpriced Camaro, but not any track rats who were familiar with the costs associated with foreign make track-cars.....The only thing that would make complaining about the price stop is if they didn't make the Z/28 at all....and that's not going to happen....The Z/28 competes with cars that are twice the price, not against entry level Camaro street models....

word,

[Thor142]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

Yes, the wheels were a first, and new territory.

As much as people hate to admit it, the flat plane crank is nothing new...in fact it's very, very old - the GT350 is just a unique application of it. And I tend to find just as many people that think it's a stupid idea as I do people who would marry it.

The Z/28 used some very expensive technology to overcome the weight of the Zeta platform to get it to be where it was. Thin rear glass, etc...small-production items like that are outrageously expensive. And it showed in the price...

But my intention is not to put either car down. Both serve the same purpose to each company - they're experiments at pushing the limits of performance from their respective platforms. They're not meant to be high production, and they're not meant to be affordable.


+1


+1


It's only going to go up from here....handling, weight reduction, and aero are going to be the next frontier...

Wait, wait....hang on a second here. I think the Z/28 is cool too but there's some serious bias in this thread. I suppose since it's a Camaro forum it's excusable
The flat plane crank may not be a new idea but the Voodoo motor is new. Ford developed a new motor and stuck it in a new(ish) platform along with some other tech that was new (to them). Lets call it a win and be fair. They also came in for a lot less than the Z/28
The Z/28 took an old platform and an old V8 and the dampers from their lemans cars and the brakes of the old ZR1 and parts binned a race car together. Was it an amazing car? Sure! I have no argument at all there. It's perfomance it stunning for what it is.
It was overpriced. Period. They tried to gouge people based on the "look how it compares with cars twice it's price" factor and the bet didn't pay off.

[Raven87]

Originally Posted by Thor142

Wait, wait....hang on a second here. I think the Z/28 is cool too but there's some serious bias in this thread. I suppose since it's a Camaro forum it's excusable
The flat plane crank may not be a new idea but the Voodoo motor is new. Ford developed a new motor and stuck it in a new(ish) platform along with some other tech that was new (to them). Lets call it a win and be fair. They also came in for a lot less than the Z/28
The Z/28 took an old platform and an old V8 and the dampers from their lemans cars and the brakes of the old ZR1 and parts binned a race car together. Was it an amazing car? Sure! I have no argument at all there. It's perfomance it stunning for what it is.
It was overpriced. Period. They tried to gouge people based on the "look how it compares with cars twice it's price" factor and the bet didn't pay off.

^^^THIS^^^

Oh
So
True

[Mr. Wyndham]

Thor...you may have missed the part of my posts where I said I wasn't putting the cars in competition or putting either down. Just highlighting the unique features to each and their pros/cons. Most of the Z/28s cons include price...

Originally Posted by Thor142

DSSV dampers were introduced in 2002. While not widely used in passenger car applications they were by no means experimental in 2013 or whenever the Z/28 was in development.

DSSV dampers were never used in passenger cars...ever. I admit, I hardly consider the Aston One-77 a regular production passenger car...but that's the only other car that used them...Racing spool valves use a cartridge/removable design...the Z/28 was a street-application. Very new. Very experimental on the part of the Camaro team with regards to producing a car.

Originally Posted by Thor142

The flat plane crank may not be a new idea but the Voodoo motor is new. Ford developed a new motor and stuck it in a new(ish) platform along with some other tech that was new (to them). Lets call it a win and be fair. They also came in for a lot less than the Z/28

I simply focused on the flat-plane crank aspect of the engine. And that it is not new...in fact, that was one of the first ways to cut a crank for internal combustion engines because they were simple and cheap. Albeit unrefined. Technology has evolved a long way since then...

Originally Posted by Thor142

It was overpriced. Period. They tried to gouge people based on the "look how it compares with cars twice it's price" factor and the bet didn't pay off.

I'm not so sure. "Overpriced" is a phrase that's over-used...in order to use the term legitimately, you must compare what you get to other products in the market...and if other things are cheaper or are a better value, then the criticism holds water.

On the other hand....it WAS expensive. The most expensive Camaro ever produced and sold. Perhaps they priced it too high...perhaps they built too many...but for the performance, and true track-focused-ness of the Z/28...I do not agree that it was overpriced at all.

On a totally different note....does the GT350 (or R) use a dry-sump oiling system? I don't know...

[SpeedIsLife]

The Voodoo does not use a dry sump system.

[Thor142]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

Thor...you may have missed the part of my posts where I said I wasn't putting the cars in competition or putting either down. Just highlighting the unique features to each and their pros/cons. Most of the Z/28s cons include price...

Price is mainly what we're talking about in the stop whining about price thread

DSSV dampers were never used in passenger cars...ever. I admit, I hardly consider the Aston One-77 a regular production passenger car...but that's the only other car that used them...Racing spool valves use a cartridge/removable design...the Z/28 was a street-application. Very new. Very experimental on the part of the Camaro team with regards to producing a car.

I said that. Regardless of their application the DSSV were not new or experimental. They were already in production and being used. I'm pretty sure GM just had to get them tuned to the Z

I simply focused on the flat-plane crank aspect of the engine. And that it is not new...in fact, that was one of the first ways to cut a crank for internal combustion engines because they were simple and cheap. Albeit unrefined. Technology has evolved a long way since then...

Doesn't matter. Ford didn't invent the tech but they built the Voodoo from the ground up and it was a first for them. Not something they just borrowed and slapped into the GT350

I'm not so sure. "Overpriced" is a phrase that's over-used...in order to use the term legitimately, you must compare what you get to other products in the market...and if other things are cheaper or are a better value, then the criticism holds water.

No. That's not how the market works. You put a price on something based on what you think it's worth and the market tells you whether you were right or wrong. You can compare all you want but at the end of the day people have to actually BUY it.

On the other hand....it WAS expensive. The most expensive Camaro ever produced and sold. Perhaps they priced it too high...perhaps they built too many...but for the performance, and true track-focused-ness of the Z/28...I do not agree that it was overpriced at all.

On a totally different note....does the GT350 (or R) use a dry-sump oiling system? I don't know...

I looked and apparently its not.

[Bhobbs]

The GT350R vs Z/28 isn't really a direct comparison. The GT350R is more of an option package than a stand alone car, like the Z/28. The R just tweaks what the GT350 already had to improve it. If the R didn't have a cheap base GT350 to spread development costs, I'm sure it wouldn't have ended up much cheaper than the Z/28.

[mkorgan]

Originally Posted by Thor142

It was overpriced. Period. They tried to gouge people based on the "look how it compares with cars twice it's price" factor and the bet didn't pay off.

Ok, I am finally calling BS on you. Please provide me a car AT THE TIME that performed equally or better than the Z/28 on the track within $20K. I'll wait.

If the car was overpriced, please tell me the car (or cars as I am sure you have quite the list) that provided one of the best N/A V8's ever built, a suspension only used in 1 production car that cost in excess of $350K when new otherwise was limited to F1 racing, Carbon Ceramic Brakes, Trofeo tires, AND a WARRANTY for track use.

Here is a list of cars in the 2014 VIR evaluation and how the Z/28 (which you say is overpriced) did in the comparison. GM said it was built for one purpose, and it did the purpose EXTEMELY well. PLEASE OH PLEASE tell me how this $75K car beating cars twice, three, four times more expensive at the one thing is was design to do it overpriced.

[Thor142]

Originally Posted by mkorgan

Ok, I am finally calling BS on you. Please provide me a car AT THE TIME that performed equally or better than the Z/28 on the track within $20K. I'll wait.

If the car was overpriced, please tell me the car (or cars as I am sure you have quite the list) that provided one of the best N/A V8's ever built, a suspension only used in 1 production car that cost in excess of $350K when new otherwise was limited to F1 racing, Carbon Ceramic Brakes, Trofeo tires, AND a WARRANTY for track use.

Here is a list of cars in the 2014 VIR evaluation and how the Z/28 (which you say is overpriced) did in the comparison. GM said it was built for one purpose, and it did the purpose EXTEMELY well. PLEASE OH PLEASE tell me how this $75K car beating cars twice, three, four times more expensive at the one thing is was design to do it overpriced.

Call BS all you want. They didn't even make 2000 of them and they are still sitting on dealer lots 2 years later brand new. All that stuff you just posted is fan boy bench racing. GM set a price. The consumers said no way. End of story.