[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by mt3130

There is a lot of incorrect information stated in this thread. At this point, a decision to drive a manual is a personal preference, because the autos are faster and better on gas, assuming the same engine is used for both (I have to say that since the 5th gen autos and manuals get different engines).

The manuals are still better for road racing. Even GM has said that with the Z06.

[Raven87]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

The manuals are still better for road racing. Even GM has said that with the Z06.

Do you have a link to that article? Apparently most other companies (Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini, etc) do not subscribe to that train of thought.

[fastball]

Manual SS for me. I will gladly trade the slight irritation of heavy traffic for the enjoyment of rowing my own gears on open roads. Every single time.

Also, if you really know how to drive stick, and get to know your car well, you can learn to balance the throttle and hold it in gear (or not have to shift as often), whether it's first or second, on the flow of traffic (unless it comes to complete dead stop for longer than a few seconds).

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Trans damm

Maybe you didn't sense the sarcasm.. That was in response to prior comments about the "man" pedal and such..

No, it doesn't always come through. But for those who might actually base their choices on such thoughts . . . do we actually agree that they're pretty weak reasons?

Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369

They put down less power, so while they will win most of the time in a perfect straight line at full throttle, the potential is there for a manual to win given an excellent run.

If you stopped right there, more people might agree with you.

At anything that doesn't involve a full-throttle straight line - which is nearly 100% of the time you will spend in a vehicle - they are slower. Not that it matters, because nearly 100% of your car's life will be spent NOT RACING, so buying anything based on racing unless it is a dedicated track car is ridiculous. These cars just perform better daily driving with a stick. They're built for it. They're lighter, they're more nimble, there is more control. If it's a Honda, get the auto, but there's something different about these cars.

I'm confused. If you aren't at WOT, then the fact that your car might be potentially slower (or faster) than the other guy's because of transmission type is utterly irrelevant. Remember, if you aren't at WOT it's because you chose not to be there. I see this a lot, where if I'm not in any particular hurry lots of cars will pull ahead of me from a traffic light. Lots of cars that wouldn't if I wanted to make a race out of it, but most of the time I simply can't be bothered.

It isn't really emotional. The market is the way it is because most don't know how to drive a manual transmission anymore. If everyone was forced to take their driver's test in a manual transmission, you can bet a lot less automatics would be sold when it comes to cars like Camaro's, Mustang's and Challenger's. The overwhelming majority of these cars will never see any kind of significant drag strip time. Many will never run a 1/4 mile once. Automatics rule out of necessity. My simple point is this - take a crash course driving a stick, then decide. Too many people buy the auto because they think they have to, then try to justify it because they're embarrassed. There is no need to be. Take a few whacks at a friend's car, then throw yourself to the wolves if it's what you really want but you feel like you can't do it.

It's not just that people don't know how to drive stick, it's at least partly because as time has gone by fewer people have grown up with much exposure to them. When just about every car you rode in as a kid was an automatic, that's how you subconsciously expect cars to work, and you'll have a tendency to not want to have to put any more effort into driving your own car when that time comes around. It's a predisposition thing.

You aren't giving the torque converter nearly enough credit. Under certain conditions it will actually multiply the torque coming into it, and it will allow the engine to 'flash' up to an rpm where more torque is available to begin with. A conventional clutch can't do either of those things, and even the top fuel clutches can only allow the engine rpm to be decoupled from the road speed (no torque multiplication).

Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369

It takes a lot more power to turn an auto. Where is this myth that they are better on gas? Every generation of Camaro ever made, the manual has been better on gas. The manual is significantly more efficient than the automatic in a 5th gen despite the fact it has 26 more horsepower and doesn't have AFM.

What makes you think the 6th gen will be more efficient on gas in the auto? Automatics are heavy to turn. All that parasitic drivetrain loss adds up quickly.

Please do a little more research before posting - the Camaro5's wiki is a real easy place to start (and for 2010 puts the LS3 at 16/24 while the L99 is 16/25). While the AFM is likely responsible for the better highway number, the city numbers are identical.

Consider that it will be easier for an 8A to allow the engine to operate at higher efficiency point more of the time than it will be for you to keep a 6M there, assuming that the individual gear ratios, final drive ratio, and torque converter characteristics are chosen accordingly. There are emissions considerations that favor the use of automatics and as a result allow slightly more aggressive tuning for improved mpg.

It's unlikely that you're more of a conventional manual transmission fan than I am (since 1973 even our 2- and 4-door family sedans have all been MT), but the realities of the situation cannot be ignored just because you'd individually prefer to disregard them.


Originally Posted by Bhobbs
The manuals are still better for road racing. Even GM has said that with the Z06.

Originally Posted by Raven87

Do you have a link to that article? Apparently most other companies (Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini, etc) do not subscribe to that train of thought.

GM's comment has to be taken in the context of the conventional 3-pedal manual transmission vs conventional torque converter equipped automatic that are the only transmission choices for the Corvette. Unless they've snuck a DSG in there while none of us was looking.

This discussion isn't about DSG transmissions anyway (6 speed Manual or 8 speed auto; what will you choose?). If/when other options show up - DSG, CVT, whatever - then it'll be the subject of a different thread entirely.


Norm

[Raven87]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Originally Posted by Bhobbs
The manuals are still better for road racing. Even GM has said that with the Z06.

GM's comment has to be taken in the context of the conventional 3-pedal manual transmission vs conventional torque converter equipped automatic that are the only transmission choices for the Corvette. Unless they've snuck a DSG in there while none of us was looking.

This discussion isn't about DSG transmissions anyway (6 speed Manual or 8 speed auto; what will you choose?). If/when other options show up - DSG, CVT, whatever - then it'll be the subject of a different thread entirely.


Norm

No DSG in the C7 that I know of either.

GM has publicly said the 8L90 will outshift (in speed) the Porsche DSG haven't they? I haven't seen the statement or article from GM stating that they essentially recommend the manual over the 8 speed for road racing but would like to read it.

And while transmission design is important, isn't the bottom line about weight, reliability, parasitic loss, and ultimately shift change speed? I don't think it would really matter what transmission style is used (unless mandated by the racing authority's rule book) as long as the transmission in the car is fast, light, reliable, consumes the least amount of horsepower, and shifts faster than anything else. All of those factors will determine the competitiveness of any racing transmission.

Yes, the imports use a DSG but that is because of the features it provides and in particular the gear shift change speed. I would imagine if they found an even better transmission design that would win more races (such as three rubber bands and a sharp wooden stick), they would dump the DSG and move to the next big thing.

I'm not sure why the new 8 speed auto would be considered a detriment to a road racer over the manual per GM if it is as good as GM says it is?

Thanks.

[Norm Peterson]

Heat generation and weight, to start with.

For the drag racer (where shift speed is crucial), the first is not a problem and the second can be overcome by means not necessarily available to the road racer (and which brings you right back to the first problem).

With an automatic, you have less control over the actual engagement of the next gear. Harshness is fine (perhaps even preferable) at the dragstrip, where there are only upshifts. But it's not so nice when you've got some cornering load going on simultaneously. You can modulate how hard the clutch grabs and modulate engine rpm to suit when you're doing it all yourself, but not how hard the AT grabs. When you're only trying to do (say) the rev match for a downshift and the tranny is trying to do its thing in response to that manually commanded downshift, it's all too easy to not have things done in sync with each other. It's a do-able but pretty clunky technique so I doubt that many people ever do more than maybe try it out.


Norm

[Raven87]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Heat generation and weight, to start with.

For the drag racer (where shift speed is crucial), the first is not a problem and the second can be overcome by means not necessarily available to the road racer (and which brings you right back to the first problem).

With an automatic, you have less control over the actual engagement of the next gear. Harshness is fine (perhaps even preferable) at the dragstrip, where there are only upshifts. But it's not so nice when you've got some cornering load going on simultaneously. You can modulate how hard the clutch grabs and modulate engine rpm to suit when you're doing it all yourself, but not how hard the AT grabs. When you're only trying to do (say) the rev match for a downshift and the tranny is trying to do its thing in response to that manually commanded downshift, it's all too easy to not have things done in sync with each other. It's a do-able but pretty clunky technique so I doubt that many people ever do more than maybe try it out.


Norm

I've never road raced much less in a DSG car but I would think that a DSG downshifts just as fast as it upshifts, wouldn't it? And, if that's the case and if this downshifting is an issue (modulating the clutch grab, etc), why would the imports have moved away entirely from the manual?

I'm just asking. Thanks for the info.

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by Raven87

Do you have a link to that article? Apparently most other companies (Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini, etc) do not subscribe to that train of thought.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/..._track_retest/

"That said, Corvette chief engineer Tadge Juechter recently told Corvette fans the automatic transmission runs hotter and will go into a preservation mode sooner, so he recommends the manual for serious track duty or when the ambient temperature at the track is above 86 degrees. The high ambient temperature on our test day was 70 degrees."

[Raven87]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/..._track_retest/

"That said, Corvette chief engineer Tadge Juechter recently told Corvette fans the automatic transmission runs hotter and will go into a preservation mode sooner, so he recommends the manual for serious track duty or when the ambient temperature at the track is above 86 degrees. The high ambient temperature on our test day was 70 degrees."

Perfect, thanks.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Raven87

I've never road raced much less in a DSG car but I would think that a DSG downshifts just as fast as it upshifts, wouldn't it? And, if that's the case and if this downshifting is an issue (modulating the clutch grab, etc), why would the imports have moved away entirely from the manual?

I'm just asking. Thanks for the info.

Disregarding the obvious snob appeal of offering "real race car stuff for our street-driving-only customers (aka "wanna-be's")", they really are better suited to the track. Actually, I'm not at all sure that DSG shifts have been completely smoothed out under all conditions. Part-throttle roughness/harshness still seems to attract complaint.

Emissions has something to do with it (probably a lot). Having to run a third certification gets expensive for whatever option sells in the smallest volume and thus harder to justify. This is hardly any different from car mfrs who don't offer any transmission choice at all for most of their models.


Norm

[Buzman]

A8 cause I am lazy.

[iPODFAN11]

Okay so here's a good question to think on...

Seeing that the 6 speed cars get a NON-AFM version of the LT1, does this indicate a different RPO code for it? Or does it share RPO code, and it gets differentiated by the transmission option?

Second point/question...

This non AFM LT1...makes me wonder. Every version of LT small block out at the moment has AFM. The LV3 4.3 V6, the L83 5.3, the L86 6.2, the LT1 in the Stingray (both transmissions) and even the stupid powerful LT4 (both transmissions). This is the first mention/notion that there is a non AFM version out there. Does this spell a hint towards a future NA LT non AFM engine for say a Z car or 1LE type, manual only track monster? Without AFM, there is (if history is any indication with LS3 vs L99) there is the ability for a high winding LT small block.

[BigCee66]

Auto. V8