12-09-2023, 02:36 PM | #1471 | |
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https://www.latimes.com/business/sto...a-range-claims Reuters reports that Tesla created a team to cancel service appointments en masse for customers complaining about battery-range shortfalls. https://www.reuters.com/investigates...tteries-range/ |
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12-09-2023, 03:15 PM | #1472 | ||
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I’ve added back in on some of your original points the things that you left out of your original list.
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12-09-2023, 04:02 PM | #1473 |
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The initial quoted material was written in response specifically to "BIG NEWS!" post about (subsidized) fast charging infrastructure going up nationwide.
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12-09-2023, 05:02 PM | #1474 | ||
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Nobody should rely on Fast Charging as their primary means of powering the vehicle because it does degrade the battery over time. I doubt you’d find anyone who knows anything about EVs that would argue that point. Statistics do show, however, that EV owners do more than 90% of their charging at home at 220 - 240V. The point of Fast Charging is to provide charging capability for long trips. Period. I don’t need to waste even 5 minutes at a gas station because every morning I have 260 miles of range, even though I typically only need 20 - 50. If I spend 40 minutes at a Tesla Supercharger a couple times a year when I do make long trips, it is more than made up for in the many times I don’t have to spend 5 minutes at a gas station. It’s all about a preference for trade-offs. Eliminate 90% of the 5 minute fill-ups in exchange for a handful of 25-40 minute stops? Cool.
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12-09-2023, 05:51 PM | #1475 |
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When the charge stations can’t keep up with demand, I’m gonna get a 10-15 k generator, drive around and charge $60 for a 1/2 hour and then $30 for every half hour after that.
Well shit….probably should have kept that idea to myself. |
12-09-2023, 06:29 PM | #1476 | |
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Kind of like how (to el ess a's point), all the hype/propaganda that is shoved in our faces around EV's deliberately leaves out the limitations and negatives of EVs? And that type of downside information is almost impossible to find unless you go digging for it? Ranges are exaggerated. Insurance is nuts. A scratch/dent can total it. Free ride on electric rates and highway taxes will not last. Registrations can already be very high. Excess weight. Tire wear. Road wear. Fast charging is only valid for about 60% of your total capacity and is detrimental. Poor performance in cold climates. Rapid initial depreciation/poor resale value. ...among other things. People need to go into this fully informed, even though they won't have a choice in the end. EV's may have a role in the future, but as it stands they are not the answer to everything they are portrayed as. Last edited by Capricio; 12-09-2023 at 06:43 PM. |
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12-10-2023, 08:16 AM | #1477 |
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I had a EV with a standard range battery and a grid heater for a year. I fast charged once. Took the ICE for long trips.
More important to have a home charger on a 60amp breaker. I want my next one to have true 250+ mi range, sunroof, heated seats/steering wheel, and a heat pump. I’d be happy with that.
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12-10-2023, 09:15 AM | #1478 | |
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As far as EVs go, I understand, like and appreciate EVs and own one. I recognize that after a couple failed attempts, EVs have now stamped an indelible mark on the industry and will continue to take market share away from ICE. This tends to p!$$ off a lot of my ICE ‘til I die friends. Whatever. As far as ICEs go, I understand, like and appreciate ICEs and own three. I recognize that despite the efforts of regulators and some state governments, ICE will be around for a while. Probably a couple more decades. Maybe longer. This tends to p!$$ off a lot of my EV or the world is doomed friends. Whatever. The company I work for is the premier automotive forecasting company in the world. We also get vehicle registration information from every US state, every Canadian province, and most countries on the planet. This helps make our production and sales reporting as well as our forecasts more accurate. It also allows us to produce customer facing tools like CarFax and dealer facing tools like Automotive MasterMind. I’m sure that many here would be absolutely shocked to know that as the forecasters work on developing the next forecast, I’m the loudest voice in the room telling them they need to dial back some of the EV volume that they are projecting for the US. In my opinion they are relying too much on European math models that (accurately) project very high EV take rates and very fast drawback on ICE in Europe. There are factors, some of them mentioned by el ess a and Capricio that will slow the rate of growth, but not the fact that there will continue to be growth. That’s probably all I can say about that in this forum without getting fired. What I try to do most in this thread is push back on a lot of the denial that seems to resonate from strongly held opinions tossed around as fact. So things like “Do not fast charge a battery when conditions are too cold”….c’mon, that’s not true. There are elements of truth, like it’s not good for the battery to charge it when it’s cold. But absent the fact that every EV tells you what to do to completely avoid that is missing and makes the statement by itself a bit disingenuous. I also tend to point out that the “it’ll take you x hours to charge on long trips” has already been dealt with and just plain is not true anymore. Battery development has improved charge times to the point where most EVs can add a couple hundred miles of range in the time it takes to go to the bathroom and replenish snacks for the rest of the trip. I also tend to point out that when I use my ICE vehicles, I’m spending 5 - 10 minutes at a time gassing them. When I’m driving our EV, I save that time every single week of the year. I have no intention of telling anybody that they should buy an EV anymore than I would tell anybody that they should buy a V8 Camaro. Actually I’m more inclined to tell someone who asks to NOT buy an EV. Especially if they cannot reliably charge it at Level 2 overnight. I do tend to chime in when people declare, usually with no data or based on Scotty Kilmer type clickbait that “EVs can’t do this” and “EVs can’t do that” by providing data that shows that they can and that EV capability tends to improve at clock speeds measured in weeks, not years. There are very few things, possibly none, that ICE can do but EV cannot. Make really cool exhaust noises is probably at the top of the list of can’t do. They may do things differently in a lot of cases, but typically, they can in fact do them. And development continues, so those gaps that do exist are continuously being closed.
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12-10-2023, 09:50 AM | #1479 | |
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12-10-2023, 10:01 AM | #1480 |
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If I lived in Europe I would 100% own an EV. Gas is super expensive and travelling distances are generally short. They are absolutely the best for that situation.
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12-10-2023, 10:07 AM | #1481 |
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Exactly. That and the emissions rules are tougher and OEM fines more onerous. Plus they now have low cost Chinese EVs coming in at prices below domestic (for them) ICEs. In the US, IRA is designed to prevent that.
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12-10-2023, 10:46 AM | #1482 | |
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...and as you also point out, things are evolving quickly. Which is why I advise people to hold off. Wait for the instructructure to get in place, the grid, power generation, and the charging nodes. Wait for more viable battery chemistry/solid state to become available. Wait for OEMs to figure out an assembly process and chassis design that can take at least a minor fender collision. Wait for someone to figure out how to get domestically sourced lithium out of the ground. What is (actively) being done to address any of these issues? I can't find anything. I predict any EV bought now or within the next 2-3 years will be virtually worthless in 10-12 years relative to what new EV tech is coming. Would you say the same for a new ICE SUV or truck bought now? Should people have to settle for such a limited lifecycle compared to ICE? How long should the government actively promote EVs? Is there any limit to how far they should go? If so, what should that limit be? When can/should they stop, if ever? Yet, all we hear is unbridled enthusiasm for getting on the bandwagon, immediatly, with goverment subsidies and cheap electric rates while they last. What's good for Greta, the OEMs, and goverment graft recipients isn't always what is best for lower and middle class consumers. I'm not saying i'll never buy an EV, but what is being presented to me now is distorted and misleading, which leads me to feel a level of mistrust and apprehension about them. ...but again, sure, reduce our arguments down to "vroom vroom", that's all us bitter clingers care about, I guess. |
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12-10-2023, 10:58 AM | #1483 | |
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https://jalopnik.com/rental-company-...due-1851081220 While Hertz is taking a step back from electric cars altogether, Sixt is directly singling out Tesla here, as it continues to increase its electric fleet. The company’s goal is to slowly replace its gasoline and diesel-powered cars until at least 90 percent of its fleet is electric, and it aims to do so by the end of this decade. Unless Tesla improves its quality, collision repair costs, and residual values, the second-largest rental fleet in Europe (and fourth-largest in the U.S.) won’t include cars from the American automaker. What is being done about quality, collision repair costs, and residual value? Should Tesla bother doing anything when they don't have to compete with Chinese manufacturers for US sales, with the IRA wind in their sails (sales)? Pun intended. |
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12-10-2023, 12:04 PM | #1484 | |
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So I think that where we are now is that in roughly a 10 year span, EVs have progressed from being warm weather grocery getter / to and from work oddities to being fully capable transportation machines, equal in most specs to ICE that have been developed and improved over 100 years. And they’re only getting better. For what it’s worth, I was not reducing the argument down to “vroom vroom”. I was out driving my Camaro yesterday. Top down in Michigan in December. Kind of enjoyed hearing the exhaust. The Model Y can’t do that so that’s why I mentioned it. I don’t expect that most EVs on the today will be obsolete 10 years from now anymore than I would expect an ICE on the road today will be obsolete. My 2017 Camaro has an 8-spd automatic. Two years later GM dropped a much better 10-spd in the same car and added a camera mirror to boot. Did that obsolete my car? Nope. Similar dynamic with the improvements that are coming for EVs. There will still be a used market for them among people who can’t afford or don’t want to spend for a new. Same as with ICE today.
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