[Godfatha]

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

2009 called, they want their post back.

It's all you got, sad. Ford is getting whipped in performance by Chevy all over the place. I know it's got to be frustrating to come up with something.

[kttxz06]

Originally Posted by Godfatha

It's all you got, sad. Ford is getting whipped in performance by Chevy all over the place. I know it's got to be frustrating to come up with something.

Agreed. Ford is straight up getting smashed on right now. They don't have ONE.............not ONE car in their lineup that lines up with any Chevy and out performs it.

SS > GT
Zl1 > GT350
Zl1 1LE > GT350R
ZR1 > Ford GT

Slot the 500 in there somewhere.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

The Mustang selling better is not indicative of a vehicle's performance first off. So how you link the two is beyond me. Also, yet again, the fact that you have no leg to stand on performance-wise and must result to a post that seems more to make fun of the Camaro shows how childish Mustang guys get whenever they lose a performance comparison. Are you going to bring up 03-09 next?

Also, the Mustang selling better means just that...it sells better. You can't automatically conclude that it selling more is equivalent to the Camaro being a sales failure. Does the Camaro outsell the Mustang? Sometimes yes, on average no. That has been historical. But is the Camaro selling enough to make it profitable and a success in it's own right? I would argue that it does. As an example, there were some months where the Mustang sold much less than it normally did previously. Did that spell doom for them? No. So the Camaro had a horrible month or two. Hell the Challenger seems to ALWAYS have bad sales months. Sometimes it'll outsell the Camaro and Mustang tho. This has been going on since forever with the Challenger. But they still make enough and sell enough that they can comfortably continue to produce them.

Does that satisfy your argument or is it a typical Camaro reply?

Yes typical . But what I want to know is with all the performance the Camaro offers throughout the entire lineup why can't it do better in sales. Is it the appearance, visibility issues, lack of loyal fanbase? Something holds this 6th Gen back as it has struggled since its introduction.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Yes typical . But what I want to know is with all the performance the Camaro offers throughout the entire lineup why can't it do better in sales. Is it the appearance, visibility issues, lack of loyal fanbase? Something holds this 6th Gen back as it has struggled since its introduction.

Price to get a V8. Camaro is always higher. More content, and higher price.
2017

• Challenger R/T: $32,495
• Mustang GT: $33,195
• Camaro 1SS: $35,883

2018

• Challenger R/T: $33,495
• Mustang GT: $35,095
• Camaro 1SS: $37,995

[Godfatha]

Originally Posted by kttxz06

Agreed. Ford is straight up getting smashed on right now. They don't have ONE.............not ONE car in their lineup that lines up with any Chevy and out performs it.

SS > GT
Zl1 > GT350
Zl1 1LE > GT350
ZR1 > Ford GT

Slot the 500 in there somewhere.

It is almost worthy of pity if diehard Ford fanboys weren't so obnoxious. Mopar guys aren't like that.

Trunk space? Ha. Buy an Oldsmobile if you're worried about trunk space.

Sales? Ha. It's cheaper, it should sell more. It sells a lot to rental car companies. Big deal.

[Godfatha]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Yes typical . But what I want to know is with all the performance the Camaro offers throughout the entire lineup why can't it do better in sales. Is it the appearance, visibility issues, lack of loyal fanbase? Something holds this 6th Gen back as it has struggled since its introduction.

Maybe because every pimple faced 20 year old who makes $15 bucks an hour can afford a Mustang, probably trade their fart-canned ricers in for them.

[kttxz06]

Originally Posted by Godfatha

Maybe because every pimple faced 20 year old who makes $15 bucks an hour can afford a Mustang, probably trade their fart-canned ricers in for them.

Haha, ding ding ding. Drove by our local HS to pick up my son at Jr High. Nothing but Mustangs. Oh how the sheep flock together.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Just giving you a hardtime mostly because of all the banter if stuff was legit 100% of the showroom floor or not. All good bud

Well if GM decides to add those items onto the car the problem solved. I don't know if that is the case or not. They did add them so I wonder if it was out of (performance) necessity or for track safety regulations or as a safety precaution or what. Maybe the lap time they achieved required extra safety equipment which would contradict their story about NOT trying to beat any records. I would like to know for sure.

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Though it did have alignment and most likely other setup tweaks from the supplement that technically aren't 100% showroom stock but which would impact performance.


Norm

Are you sure about that or is your "most likely" statement a guess? Is it possible that the Ford GT also had an alignment and other setup tweaks when it ran at the same track? Is it possible that they both did but the ZR1 just had a better alignment/setup tweak? Curious.

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

I found a possible answer for the poor sales.

Again, Mustangs have ALWAYS outsold the Camaro on average. You will never find one person who disagrees with that. Back when the Camaro stopped production it was because the Mustang was outselling ALL 4th Gen F-Bodys combined. That means Firebirds, Camaros, and Trans Ams combined. But it should also be noted that Mustangs have always been much cheaper. What will happen now that the prices are equal is anyone's guess. Maybe the Mustangs will continue to sell. Maybe people will flock to the better performing Camaro. Who knows.

But when you think about it, people who have the money to afford more expensive cars will probably bypass a $52K-$55K GT that underperforms and go for a ZL1 or a base C7 Stingray. Chevy has cars all across the spectrum that perform extremely well. Ford has the GTs and then you get the underperforming Shelbys with markups. And now you won't even have the GT350s anymore since the GT500 is about to hit. Which means there will be a huge market that Ford has not tapped into. $55K convertible PP1 GT Premium to a (possibly) $70K GT500 with markups, an unknown release date, and no substantial performance data at this time. With those prices and that wide of a variance in performance the ZL1 and STingrays are going to start looking a lot more appealing.

[AJL13]

I really don't understand the practically argument mustang guys are putting forth regarding visibility, interior space, etc.

If you are buying either a Camaro or a Mustang, you are already pretty much forgoing any and all reasonable practicality as far as your typical automobiles go.

"Man, I really want a fast car with only two doors and no space to haul either things or people...but by God, visibility and trunk space are absolutely imperative in my decision-making process!"

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by AJL13

I really don't understand the practically argument mustang guys are putting forth regarding visibility, interior space, etc.

If you are buying either a Camaro or a Mustang, you are already pretty much forgoing any and all reasonable practicality as far as your typical automobiles go.

"Man, I really want a fast car with only two doors and no space to haul either things or people...but by God, visibility and trunk space are absolutely imperative in my decision-making process!"

In fairness to Mustang guys, if your a young kid and it's your only car, you have to factor that in. When I was in college I bought a Mustang over a Camaro for two reasons. It was cheaper and it was a hatchback. Now that I'm an old fart with two other cars in the garage, I have other choices when I need trunkspace.

[AJL13]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

In fairness to Mustang guys, if your a young kid and it's your only car, you have to factor that in. When I was in college I bought a Mustang over a Camaro for two reasons. It was cheaper and it was a hatchback. Now that I'm an old fart with two other cars in the garage, I have other choices when I need trunkspace.

I get that. I have never been inside of an S550, but I am making the assumption that the differences between the S550 and the 6th Gen in terms of practicality and usability are minute to the point where it wouldn't factor into the final decision in purchasing either car. Again, this is nothing more than an assumption on my part.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Yes typical . But what I want to know is with all the performance the Camaro offers throughout the entire lineup why can't it do better in sales. Is it the appearance, visibility issues, lack of loyal fanbase? Something holds this 6th Gen back as it has struggled since its introduction.

Typical? Show me one person who made that argument about sales. Or change the subject if you want.

Again, the Mustang has always outsold the Camaro. You can blame visibility but that doesn't explain the 4th Gens and 3rd Gens now does it? Loyal fanbase? That is debatable for sure. Appearance? That again is debatable. Ford gets people into the Mustang much cheaper. They throw better deals out there. And they are eager to push sales. Dealerships were getting crazy incentives from Ford to push the EBs. One dealership could not keep EBs on the lot because they were getting rid of them soo cheap. You could almost walk in and name a price and walk out with one. But that cheap price comes with a compromise. You will not get the same performance. That much has been obvious.

BTW, are you bringing up sales as a last ditch effort to walk away feeling like you got people rattled? LOL! If so then good try but you're coming up short. We all know the Camaro does not sell as much nor has it ever. Let me ask you, do you think the Mustang will continue to outsell the Camaro now that the price is equal?

[kttxz06]

Originally Posted by AJL13

I get that. I have never been inside of an S550, but I am making the assumption that the differences between the S550 and the 6th Gen in terms of practicality and usability are minute to the point where it wouldn't factor into the final decision in purchasing either car. Again, this is nothing more than an assumption on my part.

I've been in a S550 and visibility forward is about the same. The Mustang has a long hood you still have to look out over. It doesn't have the side and rear visibility that the Maro has, but the seating position in the Maro is way better. You are seated further down so you feel like you are in a sports car. The Mustang, you sit a bit higher up and even tho you still have to see over the long hood, you don't sit down in the cock pit like you do in the Maro.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by AJL13

I really don't understand the practically argument mustang guys are putting forth regarding visibility, interior space, etc.

If you are buying either a Camaro or a Mustang, you are already pretty much forgoing any and all reasonable practicality as far as your typical automobiles go.

"Man, I really want a fast car with only two doors and no space to haul either things or people...but by God, visibility and trunk space are absolutely imperative in my decision-making process!"

Perceived visibility. Effective visibility. In the Mustang you can see more stuff around you and the car. How much of that stuff you can see will impact your driving is up for debate. But it is perceived as an issue.

Example: If you're walking in a straight line with nothing on your head or face then you can see everything around you. Now ifI put a helmet on your head you can still walk in a straight line. But going from no helmet to having a helmet you would feel that your visibility is compromised even if you're still just walking in a straight line. You can still see the ground and everything in front of you that you need to see to walk safely. But you have less visibility.

My argument is that the Camaro has less visibility, but none of that visibility has an actual impact on driving the vehicle. It simply seems like you can't see out of it. I can drive my ZL1 at any time of the day or night in heavy traffic and zigzag in and out of lanes without a worry at all. And it is because I can see everything that I need to see to operate the vehicle safely. Just because it has less visibility doesn't mean it doesn't have enough visibility.