[Quix]

Originally Posted by AZCamaroFan

most of the young buyers that GM needs for the camaro aren't sitting there at 8pm watching ncis and grey's anatomy waiting for a commercial on what they should buy. they're on youtube and instagram, and there is a way to market there. Chevy even did that when Camaro6 debuted, but then they just seemed to abandon it.

I'm with you, I'm not that young (in my 30s), but of my peer group, no one has cable. We don't watch network TV at all so TV commericals don't work. People in their 20's are even less likely to watch TV than my friends. Although, saying that, most young people can't afford a Camaro. I'm a software developer and I doubt I could have bought one in my 20s.

Also, I don't think lack of power has anything to do with it either, or else no one would have bought the Subaru BRZ. I hold firm that if all you're doing is driving on the street, the V6 (and probably the turbo 4) are more than you can even use. Despite what people around here might think (or do), very few people track their cars.

What I think the problem is that very few people are buying sports cars, everyone is buying small SUVs/trucks and since the overall market is shrinking there is less space for the less popular models and like it or not, the Camaro is a lot less popular than the Mustang. I'm not sure why personally (obviously, I went Camaro), but it's pretty clear that Ford has won this generation.

It's pretty sad, the 6th gen Camaro is a great car.

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by Number 3

If the issue is performance..... well it’s just not. The ZL1 beats the brand spanking new Mustang GT500 in every track review I’ve read. The Camaro, regardless of the people that are claiming Gam halted assed engine development, beats all of the competition in equivalent trim allllll day long. Performance isn’t the the issue. It’s the best Camaro EVER. So why does it sell so poorly?

I never said the engines were bad. They just didn’t do anything significant. Camaro performs great because the chassis, or do you think the ZL1 wouldn’t be any faster with 760 horsepower from the GT500?

Camaro sells poorly because GM ignored all the complaints about visibility. They sacrificed even more usability for performance.

Ford and Dodge develop stuff like the GT350 and Demon to generate excitement. GM would never do that for the Camaro. The closest thing GM ever came to something like any of the Mustang Rs or Demon was the Z/28 and even that was forced to use off the shelf parts for major components. The engine was a decade old and the brakes were from the C7. With the C7 going supercharged, we never got another Z/28.

[Bongos2U]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

I never said the engines were bad. They just didn’t do anything significant. Camaro performs great because the chassis, or do you think the ZL1 wouldn’t be any faster with 760 horsepower from the GT500?

Camaro sells poorly because GM ignored all the complaints about visibility. They sacrificed even more usability for performance.

Ford and Dodge develop stuff like the GT350 and Demon to generate excitement. GM would never do that for the Camaro. The closest thing GM ever came to something like any of the Mustang Rs or Demon was the Z/28 and even that was forced to use off the shelf parts for major components. The engine was a decade old and the brakes were from the C7. With the C7 going supercharged, we never got another Z/28.

Looks like there will be a Mustang Mach 1 coming next year...GT350 being put out to pasture.

https://www.yahoo.com/now/2021-ford-...160700842.html

[95 imp]

Originally Posted by Camaro Rules

I have not seen one lately...But they had some Really great ones during the Christmas Holidays!



While I am not a Dodge car fan...the commercials and rebates...made me go...Hmmm.


Well, just for a minute....while the commercial was on!


GMs Rebates are a...Joke!

I do not watch much TV, but they were playing around the Super Bowl and I've seen them on the cable car channels.

Ya... I always stop and watch them too. And drool a little... And I'm not a Dodge fan either, but it does make me think...

As far as rebates? WHAT rebates? It's sad that a loyal Chevy guy gets the shaft and some mustang fan boy gets almost triple the rebate I do.

[AZCamaroFan]

well Hawaii Five 0 went off tonight. one of the first and now the last bit of Camaro representation onscreen

[Aragorn]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

I never said the engines were bad. They just didn’t do anything significant. Camaro performs great because the chassis, or do you think the ZL1 wouldn’t be any faster with 760 horsepower from the GT500?

Camaro sells poorly because GM ignored all the complaints about visibility. They sacrificed even more usability for performance.

Ford and Dodge develop stuff like the GT350 and Demon to generate excitement. GM would never do that for the Camaro. The closest thing GM ever came to something like any of the Mustang Rs or Demon was the Z/28 and even that was forced to use off the shelf parts for major components. The engine was a decade old and the brakes were from the C7. With the C7 going supercharged, we never got another Z/28.

Gm saves that “stuff” for z06 and zr1 vettes, not the Camaro unfortunately.

[95 imp]

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

dodge sales aren't surging.

They're down year over year but mostly steady (probably just a virus drop). (for both the charger and challenger)

Mustang is actually up a tiny bit.

Camaro has dropped 40 percent at least. By far the outlier.

They took the #2 spot from Camaro in pony car sales and are knocking on Mustangs door BEFORE all this virus BS started.

[VQ35DE]

Originally Posted by AZCamaroFan

well Hawaii Five 0 went off tonight. one of the first and now the last bit of Camaro representation onscreen

Yep. Ten years of Camaro and Chevrolet on that show !

[LESS1]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

I never said the engines were bad. They just didn’t do anything significant. Camaro performs great because the chassis, or do you think the ZL1 wouldn’t be any faster with 760 horsepower from the GT500?

Camaro sells poorly because GM ignored all the complaints about visibility. They sacrificed even more usability for performance.

Ford and Dodge develop stuff like the GT350 and Demon to generate excitement. GM would never do that for the Camaro. The closest thing GM ever came to something like any of the Mustang Rs or Demon was the Z/28 and even that was forced to use off the shelf parts for major components. The engine was a decade old and the brakes were from the C7. With the C7 going supercharged, we never got another Z/28.

You most certainly did say LT1 was and I quote... "half ass engine development". You know what is halfassed? Frod and the half finished Mustangs they sell to the masses that cannot think without a collective decision. Cars that have issues, among them engines that use oil, make noises and then blow up, sounds exciting. Give me a min to catch my breath, too much excitement watching my Mustang blow another motor. Ok, all better now.

This constant development you mention is to fix issues and add PP1/2 to address major problems with these as Frod described early on "Track ready” cars. Well as we have seen that was BS. GT350/R same BS only now with Vooblew engines and other gimmicks. By now you’d like to think Frod would have collected enough data to identify these issues/gaps, but they didn't. So now we get new and improved GT350/R and 500. More BS and customers pay for this, unbelievable.

As for your comment regarding excitement and Camaro/GM, you are kidding right? Gen6 is much better car than any Mustang period. Frod is still trying to catch up to a 6 plus year old design. I guess GM should use Frod Engineering practices and this way Chevy can constantly “improve and innovate” to fix all the bugs just like Frod. Spin it how you want there but I’ll stick with my boring Camaro. One last comment for you. I bought a SS 1LE as a track toy. To date I am still waiting on one of these exciting and innovative Mustangs to pass me on track. I won't hold my breath but who knows it could happen right?

[Deputy Dog]

Originally Posted by MackSteelPrivateEye

Yeh..but when you drive a Honda you look like a Dork.

Hondas, Toyotas, Nissans all Dork wheels.😩😏🤣

[lt4camaro]

Originally Posted by Number 3

If the issue is performance..... well it’s just not. The ZL1 beats the brand spanking new Mustang GT500 in every track review I’ve read. The Camaro, regardless of the people that are claiming Gam halted assed engine development, beats all of the competition in equivalent trim allllll day long. Performance isn’t the the issue. It’s the best Camaro EVER. So why does it sell so poorly?

I agree the 6th gen is a fantastic car. Problem is when the Mustang GT went to 460 hp, Camaro did nothing, before that Camaro really had nothing for the GT350, Camaro needed a 500-525 horsepower answer. The ZL1 in the 5th gen was a joke 580 horse compared to the 662 hp GT500, the ZL1 6th gen should have been 700 horse to be right up Dodge's butt and be more powerful than the out going GT500. The 2020 camaro ZL1 should have gotten the LT5 as soon as the last 2019 ZR1 was built, keeping that car relevant and right up the new 760 HP GT500 butt. Camaro should have did a hipo 4cyl turbo with 300 horse to compete with the 305 -310 horse Mustang. The V6 car was perfect, but nothing to compete with especially when mustang dropped there pos v6. Camaro should have went with its 10 speed auto across the board as soon as it was available and got rid of the trouble some 8 speed auto. Its all about perception , Camaro was not competitive by the numbers, horsepower or price. Yes Camaro did compete well, but it needed to beat the competition in numbers game. I too am puzzled why Camaro is doing so badly, the LT1 model should be selling like crazy, just think if the did a LT1 HP jump to 475 for the 2019 refresh and designed a gorgeous front facia and sexier hood. Instead the 2019 refresh was a complete disaster.

[Hops]

How is the -36% decline in the Colorado explained? I would think the crossover/suv plague that explains the trax sales gains would spill over to the Colorado. Well, maybe i don't want to know, i'm kind of proud of my crossover/suv ignorance

The big gains in the spark and Cadillac declines maybe indicate buyers didn't want to spend a lot?

[Number 3]

Flat out, the Camaro is the best performing car in the segment. Regardless of not getting in a HP chase with Fiat and Ford, GM has outstanding engines. The Coyote in the Mustang is wildly more expensive than the LT1/LT4. And to get the HP Ford and Fiat are getting with the GT500 and Hellcat isn't cheap either.

Comments earlier about the Z/28 getting a 10 year old engine and Corvette CC brakes. Well at the time, NOTHING could touch that car. But it was horribly expensive and gave up every creature comfort (optional A/C) to dominate the track. And it did. And it sold like crap not meeting the 2,500 per year target in either year if I recall correctly.

So GM has elected to not pursue higher priced Camaros (LT5) with low sales volumes. Remember, they are about profit now. If people would line up to buy it, make GM more profit, then they would do it.

GM has fixed capital to invest, fixed resources to devote to projects and programs. Of course on this site we believe GM should devote those to the Camaro. But step back and ask why GM should pour more money into a car that is way under performing from a sales point of view and you can jump to the conclusion, not meeting profitability targets. If you could buy stock in Camaro today, would you?

Our only hope is that there is something in the works that fixes sales but that is likely an entirely different vehicle.

In the end, as I've said so many times, GM gave us the best Camaro ever. But in doing so they gave us a car that was compromised for many potential customers in visibility, trunk volume and rear seat room all done for the sake of performance. All 3 attributes made worse compared to the Gen5 with the exception of front visibility over the hood, which was a big improvement.

Not having seen the numbers, but I would guess that the SS sells very well against the Mustang GT. But I would also guess the higher Mustang volumes are coming from the less powerful variants. Because what people buying a 2.0T or 3.6 Camaro want is a more practical car than it is. There are a lot of people that just want a fun car that works every day. Most of you on hear will argue to your last breath that visibility is not an issue (it is) mostly because you are willing to make that trade off for the "Best Camaro Ever". In a previous argument on this topic one of us told me if it was ok for the Camaro to have poor visibility because a Lamborghini had poor visibility. Maybe, maybe not. But if a customer is in the market for a "sporty coupe" in the world of SUVs you need some practicality. And as much as the Camaro is the best performing car in this segment, it's also the least practical of the 3.

And lets get everyone started again on this on. You can't get a set of golf clubs in the trunk of the Camaro. You can in both competitors. Many have simply stated, "who the F needs golf clubs in the trunk of a Camaro". Well you have simply answered part of the sales problem. You can sell a car with a small trunk to someone doesn't care about trunk space, but you can't sell a car with a small trunk to someone who does care. It's pretty simple. To paraphrase Bob Lutz's old adage that "you can sell a young mans car to an old person, but you can't sell and old man's car to a young person".

I know this will stir that pot up again, but when you get a "Why can't the Camaro outsell a 15 year old Fiat" and your only answer is lack of advertising, we have a fundamental problem. Most making that claim have to discount how the advertising industry works. And you have to assume that the very same people that advertise the $hit out of the Silverado are the very same people that say no to Camaro advertising. The very same people are smart about one product but blind to another. And you would have to COMPLETELY ignore that these same people have their performance evaluations at least partly based on sales to not have a clue. And again, arm chair marketers, you have believe that you know more than people armed with data we can't see, and years and years of experience we don't have.

And for anyone that has posted "you can sell anything if you just advertise it", that is fundamentally a flawed argument. GM isn't advertising because they know what they have. A car designed for Camaro enthusiasts. Which is why this argument is HUGE here. We are all here because we love this car. What's missing is consideration for the buyer who could not care less if it was a Camaro or the best performing car in the segment. So for them to advertise, it would be advertising to the people it was designed for and already know about it.......us. And that would make a ton of you happy.......it just wouldn't make GM any more money.

So the fundamental question, and GM never looked at is this way in all the years I was there, is not why are people buying the Camaro, we know that. But why are people NOT buying the Camaro.

And watch the posts that follow this. They will be ripe with "it's a perfect car for me so it's a perfect car, how could anyone think otherwise" without the open mindedness that the Camaro may actually not be best for other coupe buyers (as evidenced by the sales numbers)

So go ahead and tear this up.

[Aragorn]

Originally Posted by LESS1

You most certainly did say LT1 was and I quote... "half ass engine development". You know what is halfassed? Frod and the half finished Mustangs they sell to the masses that cannot think without a collective decision. Cars that have issues, among them engines that use oil, make noises and then blow up, sounds exciting. Give me a min to catch my breath, too much excitement watching my Mustang blow another motor. Ok, all better now.

This constant development you mention is to fix issues and add PP1/2 to address major problems with these as Frod described early on "Track ready” cars. Well as we have seen that was BS. GT350/R same BS only now with Vooblew engines and other gimmicks. By now you’d like to think Frod would have collected enough data to identify these issues/gaps, but they didn't. So now we get new and improved GT350/R and 500. More BS and customers pay for this, unbelievable.

As for your comment regarding excitement and Camaro/GM, you are kidding right? Gen6 is much better car than any Mustang period. Frod is still trying to catch up to a 6 plus year old design. I guess GM should use Frod Engineering practices and this way Chevy can constantly “improve and innovate” to fix all the bugs just like Frod. Spin it how you want there but I’ll stick with my boring Camaro. One last comment for you. I bought a SS 1LE as a track toy. To date I am still waiting on one of these exciting and innovative Mustangs to pass me on track. I won't hold my breath but who knows it could happen right?

Vooblew—good one!