[redcoats1976]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Yes they were good performers, but you need to look at it without taking the performance into consideration.



Doesn't matter who buys it, you need people to buy enough of your product to sustain itself.



Again, look at without looking at the performance. What does a base Camaro do better than a base mustang or challenger?

Looks 100% subjective as is thoughts on the interior materials etc etc. So is it looks? Do that many people prefer looks of Challenger (which is basically unchanged since 08) and Mustang over camaro? unlikely.

you can get the same/similar features in both for similar moneys, so that's probably not it.

Mustang/Challenger have more liveable interior space, trunk space and openings and visibility. They are better at being cars than the Camaro is and that's really the only logical explanation to me.

this really makes the most sense to me,althoughim happy with my 5th gen RS,and if i had to replace it for some reason it would probably be with a 6th gen RS.just dont like the looks or seating position of the mustang,and the challenger is too big and heavy.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by hotlap

What is the number that signifies selling "enough"?

Ford and Dodge continue to invest in this segment with new performance models to generate buzz. Free advertising. Halo effect.

"I want a Hellcat ...but look at my SXT with all wheel drive!"

Attachment 1073214

Selling enough depends on a lot of factors.

First is all the cost associated to develop and tool the car. That is 100s of millions if not billions. But the Camaro shares an architecture and a plant so some of those costs were shared.

Then you have to consider the contribution margin, the costs simply to support the programs share of running the company like healthcare and retirement (GM has a lot here compared to Ford and Stellantis).

Then you have to balance volume vs transaction price. The more you charge the fewer you sell and all the previous costs all get spread over fewer units making the car less profitable or even a loser.

In the long run the tools are paid for and the development costs covered and you are left what we have now. Does GM make a profit on the Camaro? Likely or it would be gone. If nothing else it recoups money required to keep the plant running with the two traditional ally low selling Cadillacs and helps with that healthcare and pension problem.

So I expect the Camaro to exist for a few more years as long as it meets safety and emissions.

Now for investing in improvements? Each one of those improvements has to stand on its own business case. Does it create more volume or more margin to get a good return on that investment.

My guess is GM bet on 80,000 or more Camaros per year, probably closer to 100,000.

But the chart shows a steep drop in the segment volume so that isn’t likely a good place to invest…….sadly.

[Modernmusclecar]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Selling enough depends on a lot of factors.

First is all the cost associated to develop and tool the car. That is 100s of millions if not billions. But the Camaro shares an architecture and a plant so some of those costs were shared.

Then you have to consider the contribution margin, the costs simply to support the programs share of running the company like healthcare and retirement (GM has a lot here compared to Ford and Stellantis).

Then you have to balance volume vs transaction price. The more you charge the fewer you sell and all the previous costs all get spread over fewer units making the car less profitable or even a loser.

In the long run the tools are paid for and the development costs covered and you are left what we have now. Does GM make a profit on the Camaro? Likely or it would be gone. If nothing else it recoups money required to keep the plant running with the two traditional ally low selling Cadillacs and helps with that healthcare and pension problem.

So I expect the Camaro to exist for a few more years as long as it meets safety and emissions.

Now for investing in improvements? Each one of those improvements has to stand on its own business case. Does it create more volume or more margin to get a good return on that investment.

My guess is GM bet on 80,000 or more Camaros per year, probably closer to 100,000.

But the chart shows a steep drop in the segment volume so that isn’t likely a good place to invest…….sadly.

Billions? Not quite. The 6th gen sales for whatever reason started off slow. And never got better.Alot of comments here s to why are just excuses. GM has done a terrible job spicing up the Camaro. Dodge are allin in the hype department and it's paid off they are now #2in the segment. Plus people still love the look of the Challenger and Dodge has done a good job making the Charger look badass. Dodge has the Hellcat..Demon...392 Scat packs. Ford is also getting some hype going....Gt 350.... Shelby Gt 500 and now the Mach 1. Dodge and Ford are keeping their cars relevant in a huge car world. There should be a Z/28....maybe an Iroc badge available for the Camaro but GM doesn't care. The 6th gen needed more then just a facelift to generate hype.....but it didn't get it.

[2cnd chance]

What are your thoughts as to why the Camaro is so far behind?? Personally I believe it’s the best looking of the 3, as well as the best handling.
I wasn’t able to read through this whole thread, so hopefully this wasn’t already posted.

“ Unfortunately, it seems as though 2021 will be a year of changes. With half the year already behind us, it’s important to note that Mustang leads in total overall sales by 3,638 units. There have been 33,786 Mustangs delivered compared to 30,148 Challengers, which overshadow the Camaro at 9,881. Even when Ford gets this chip shortage under control, there is a possibility the Challenger could move into the lead for total sales by year’s end.”

I’m considering a ZL1/1LE…will GM breath more fire into the 6Gen Camaro to better compete?

[2cnd chance]

Originally Posted by Modernmusclecar

Billions? Not quite. The 6th gen sales for whatever reason started off slow. And never got better.Alot of comments here s to why are just excuses. GM has done a terrible job spicing up the Camaro. Dodge are allin in the hype department and it's paid off they are now #2in the segment. Plus people still love the look of the Challenger and Dodge has done a good job making the Charger look badass. Dodge has the Hellcat..Demon...392 Scat packs. Ford is also getting some hype going....Gt 350.... Shelby Gt 500 and now the Mach 1. Dodge and Ford are keeping their cars relevant in a huge car world. There should be a Z/28....maybe an Iroc badge available for the Camaro but GM doesn't care. The 6th gen needed more then just a facelift to generate hype.....but it didn't get it.

I’ll agree GM is not hyping the Camaro enough to compete. There’s been constant Challenger and Mustang package changes and advertisements. The Camaro needs a Z/28 & a Z/28R package (upcoming Z06 engine and transmission?) and an LT5 upgrade for the ZL1 and ZL1/1LE. C’mon GM let’s give the Camaro a boost by creating some excitement!

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by 2cnd chance

I’ll agree GM is not hyping the Camaro enough to compete. There’s been constant Challenger and Mustang package changes and advertisements. The Camaro needs a Z/28 & a Z/28R package (upcoming Z06 engine and transmission?) and an LT5 upgrade for the ZL1 and ZL1/1LE. C’mon GM let’s give the Camaro a boost by creating some excitement!

LT5 would be epic!

[MichaelG]

When our beloved Camaro is no longer produced, what will GM do to fill its slot?

How about base Corvette under $50,000...

[396ssrat]

Likely whittle Chopsticks for their new customers.

[2cnd chance]

Ford and Dodge seem to do a better job with their legacy models than GM…Why??

[CamaroSSStlfan]

Originally Posted by MichaelG

When our beloved Camaro is no longer produced, what will GM do to fill its slot?

How about base Corvette under $50,000...

What about bringing back the Monte Carlo or the Chevelle SS 396? to take the place of the Camaro?

[arpad_m]

Originally Posted by 2cnd chance

Ford and Dodge seem to do a better job with their legacy models than GM…Why??

Because I don't think GM cares anymore.

[CamaroSSStlfan]

even the SVT Cobra in 1999 gets spanked by the Trans Am and Camaro


Camaro was ranked the best.


Mind boggling how Trans Am and Camaro was axed. They were also underrated power wise at that time.

[JamesNoBrakes]

Originally Posted by 2cnd chance

What are your thoughts as to why the Camaro is so far behind?? Personally I believe it’s the best looking of the 3, as well as the best handling.
I wasn’t able to read through this whole thread, so hopefully this wasn’t already posted.

“ Unfortunately, it seems as though 2021 will be a year of changes. With half the year already behind us, it’s important to note that Mustang leads in total overall sales by 3,638 units. There have been 33,786 Mustangs delivered compared to 30,148 Challengers, which overshadow the Camaro at 9,881. Even when Ford gets this chip shortage under control, there is a possibility the Challenger could move into the lead for total sales by year’s end.”

I’m considering a ZL1/1LE…will GM breath more fire into the 6Gen Camaro to better compete?

Ergonomically it's not good. People at this pricepoint don't want to sacrifice ergonomics, even though you can adapt to the issues, it's by far the hardest to get in/out, worst visibility and people are lazy. They are by and large not looking for the ultimate performance machine, they are looking for something their wife can drive, etc.

Let me put it another way, people are not buying the mustang and challenger for their performance. That may be an aspect of it, but it's everything else that has won people over.

Just the fact that people buy Mustang GTs with 255 rear tires should tell you all you need to know. People are dumb.

The camaro is a fantastic performer in higher trim levels, V6 1LE, SS 1LE, ZL1, ZL1 1LE, but below that, it's not compelling. It's not bad...it's just not compelling and you are sacrificing all those ergonomic issues for no real benefit. Those higher end specs make up a fraction of the overall sales, or at least what the overall sales *should* be. Traditionally you sell a ton of the lower end cars to help offset some of the R&D and production of the higher end cars. You still try to turn a profit on all of them, but a good example is Porsche selling cayannes and macans day in and day out. That's what carries the business. They may be "hot", but they sure aren't as hot as a GT3 or GT4. Volume is generally how you make money.

[MichaelG]

Originally Posted by CamaroSSStlfan

What about bringing back the Monte Carlo or the Chevelle SS 396? to take the place of the Camaro?

Probably be a very nice car, but I still want a small sporty two door coupe.

A stripped down Corvette. Delete all the superfluous electronics. Put in a smaller lighter motor in that chassis! Smooth out the edges on that body. I'm fine with a 0-60 around 5 seconds as long as I can enjoy the handling of that car. Make a true sports car that is affordable.