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Old 01-16-2020, 12:39 PM   #15
Puddin
 
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This is almost identical to the cam I run in my car. Gen 5 LT/CS 242/258 Centrifugal Supercharger Camshaft (242/258-117+4)
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Old 01-16-2020, 11:07 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puddin View Post
This is almost identical to the cam I run in my car. Gen 5 LT/CS 242/258 Centrifugal Supercharger Camshaft (242/258-117+4)
Don't you have a 427?
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Old 01-17-2020, 12:12 AM   #17
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Yes I do but it's set up to have boost thrown at it later on. Now that I looked back at Cam Motions website it looks like you can get away with more overlap with the bigger cubes. Their biggest cam for stock cubes has only 6 degrees of overlap based off his blower choice. I'd still try to contact Ryan Stevens from GPI and see what he's says since he deals with these cars day in and day out and see what he says.
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Old 01-17-2020, 09:52 AM   #18
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Yea you don't cam a 376 the same as a 427...

Yep I am familiar with Cam Motion and I also recommended to keep the overlap in the 4-6 degree range.

GPI caters more to NA builds hence why you don't see many FI LT1 cam options on their website. The SS4 is a not a optimal choice imo. Like I said previously, there is a local car running one with a P1sc @ 12psi...it's not a optimal choice. The owner is not happy with it and he is trying to sell the car. It's a NA cam that wants more compression, gear, and rpm.
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Old 01-17-2020, 10:40 AM   #19
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Call Cam Motion or Texas Speed.
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Old 01-17-2020, 12:53 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puddin View Post
Yes I do but it's set up to have boost thrown at it later on. Now that I looked back at Cam Motions website it looks like you can get away with more overlap with the bigger cubes. Their biggest cam for stock cubes has only 6 degrees of overlap based off his blower choice. I'd still try to contact Ryan Stevens from GPI and see what he's says since he deals with these cars day in and day out and see what he says.
In general, in a N/A application you can get away with overlap, and the larger the CI the more you can get away with.

The problem is - If / When you boost it, you will then be loosing boost.

If you are boosted, and have overlap, you are blowing air & fuel right out the exhaust. It doesn't matter what you have for headers, intake, etc.... it goes out and is lost.

For my setup I was looking at a lot of cams. I was down to two or three, one had 0 overlap, one had one degree of overlap, and one had 5. All three cams had intake close points that were within one degree of each other. Between where that point is and TDC at the end of the compression stroke is your chance to build pressure. If you have overlap once the piston gets to TDC while under boost, you are reducing the amount of pressure you can generate.

The whole process of looking at duration numbers and LSA angles means nothing. You have to open and close the valves at the right time.

Unfortunately so much emphasis is put on the idle sound. Yea, 8-10 degrees of overlap will get you a lot of attention when you putt around at cars & coffee, but you are going to trade drivability and cruising power for it.

I myself worked with a cam builder that I think is the best to work with, paid the money for a custom cam, and I was floored at how small of a cam they recommended. My build is a stock cubic inch configuration with stock heads, but I am still using a Novi1500 head unit (can move 1200+cfm). Now I specifically told them I would rather have 30 more ft lbs at 6000rpm vs 30 more hp at 7000rpm, but upon talking to the tech, he said that was more overlap than anything. Keeping between -2 to 0 degrees of overlap was the best way to "get the best of both worlds"
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Old 01-17-2020, 01:23 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DorkMissile View Post
In general, in a N/A application you can get away with overlap, and the larger the CI the more you can get away with.

The problem is - If / When you boost it, you will then be loosing boost.

If you are boosted, and have overlap, you are blowing air & fuel right out the exhaust. It doesn't matter what you have for headers, intake, etc.... it goes out and is lost.

For my setup I was looking at a lot of cams. I was down to two or three, one had 0 overlap, one had one degree of overlap, and one had 5. All three cams had intake close points that were within one degree of each other. Between where that point is and TDC at the end of the compression stroke is your chance to build pressure. If you have overlap once the piston gets to TDC while under boost, you are reducing the amount of pressure you can generate.

The whole process of looking at duration numbers and LSA angles means nothing. You have to open and close the valves at the right time.

Unfortunately so much emphasis is put on the idle sound. Yea, 8-10 degrees of overlap will get you a lot of attention when you putt around at cars & coffee, but you are going to trade drivability and cruising power for it.

I myself worked with a cam builder that I think is the best to work with, paid the money for a custom cam, and I was floored at how small of a cam they recommended. My build is a stock cubic inch configuration with stock heads, but I am still using a Novi1500 head unit (can move 1200+cfm). Now I specifically told them I would rather have 30 more ft lbs at 6000rpm vs 30 more hp at 7000rpm, but upon talking to the tech, he said that was more overlap than anything. Keeping between -2 to 0 degrees of overlap was the best way to "get the best of both worlds"
I was referring to Cam Motions Gen 5 LT/CS 242/258 Centrifugal Supercharger Camshaft (242/258-117+4) cam when I was talking about getting away with more overlap. It has 16 degrees of overlap yet they still classify it as a Centri style blower cam for 416-427 motors. To be honest all this cam stuff confuses the hell out of me so I just told my shop/TSP to design a cam for me that would allow for boost later on.
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Old 01-17-2020, 03:52 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DorkMissile View Post

Unfortunately so much emphasis is put on the idle sound. Yea, 8-10 degrees of overlap will get you a lot of attention when you putt around at cars & coffee, but you are going to trade drivability and cruising power for it.
Guilty as charged, BTW the car runs and drives fine with no lack of power. I had to embrace the new world order. Cams are ordered for sound now by many people, they are sold and marketed that way. I was a bit strange at first, but true.

Also a centri's boost curve further up in the RPM range can take more overlap vs a roots. Cam Motion makes completely different grinds based on the type of supercharger. The higher RPM and bigger overlap helps keep the torque flat and stable to the upper RPM ranges 6000 to 7200 rpm. Boost NOT being blown out the exhaust at 6000 RPM BTW. This lower (in terms of ft-lbs), longer torque curve allows the drivetrain to live, helps with traction on street tires and at least for my m6 adds to power under the curve, a 7200 RPM shift puts me into 5000 rpm range during the shifting where the centri is building more than enough boost to send the car into the weeds. I believe the M6 is rated at 500 ft -lbs engine... so at least to my mind limiting torque and bringing it further in the RPM is a easy way to have the HP (torque x RPM), and save the drivetrain. I figure I'm anywhere between 1000 to 2000 full throttle run thru the gears now and just started on my 4th set of back tires in 20K miles with no burnouts, just running through the gears I think I'll do some runs today on my way to Yoga... and quite meditation, puts me in the Zen mood. I don't have a roots or an auto so got no idea what works on the street for either. M6, centri and summer tires it is HP between 6000 to 7200 RPM that can be applied gently to the ground, well at least in 3rd... I bet my 0-60 already in the 3.6 range is better now cause I don't have to shift.... LOL

Nutshell with stock CR forged pistons and a centri, more overlap can be had I'm at 5.6 degrees (less than I thought but my lobe lift is less), I'm sure if this was a standard Texas Speed lift spec I'd be at 8 degrees or so.

https://www.tremec.com/anexos/TREMEC_TR-6060_1017.pdf the M6 has a 1.78 2nd gear.
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2019 stage 3: Forged short block 11.5 CR, huge duration sub .600 lift Cam Motion cam, Pray Ported Heads, 3.85 pulley D1X, stage II intercooler, 2 BOVs, DSX secondary low side, DSX E85 sensor, Lingenfelter big bore 2.0, CA-offroad pipe, 60609 Borla, Lingenfelter injectors, ZL1 driveshaft and half shafts, Katech ported TB,MSD intake, BTR valvetrain.

Last edited by oldman; 01-17-2020 at 04:39 PM.
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Old 01-17-2020, 06:48 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puddin View Post
I was referring to Cam Motions Gen 5 LT/CS 242/258 Centrifugal Supercharger Camshaft (242/258-117+4) cam when I was talking about getting away with more overlap. It has 16 degrees of overlap yet they still classify it as a Centri style blower cam for 416-427 motors. To be honest all this cam stuff confuses the hell out of me so I just told my shop/TSP to design a cam for me that would allow for boost later on.
Yes that cam is for a centri, true that, and a bigger engine can take a larger cam, true that. But that "race cam for the track" right from the description. i.e. it gets towed. Is that what you want? On pump gas and 10.5 CR, it may offer NO HP on the top end vs a smaller cam, now on E85 / meth and 14 PSI of boost at 7000 RPM it would be up dunno say 50 HP over a 3/4 street cam.

"Cam will have an aggressive, race car type idle and strong upper midrange and upper RPM power. This camshaft must be used in vehicles equipped with properly selected headers, high flow exhaust, increased stall speed torque converter and high flow intake systems.

If you are looking for an excellent mild race cam for the track, this camshaft is a great choice."

Note the "race car type idle",

Even CM's super hot 232 / 250 which is for a max effort 6.2 is VASTLY smaller than the cam you are looking at. The only thing that you matched is the your engine size, which is really a secondary consideration, as a smaller engine can be spun higher.

Ligenfelter is making over 1400 HP on their GT35 cam
https://www.lingenfelter.com/mm5/gra...20Kit%20v1.jpg

Specifications: intake/exhaust
Duration @ .050 valve lift 210 / 237
Lift with 1.8 rocker .640 .650 LSA 116.5
6.5 mm fuel pump lobe

If you are Joe Normal and this a pump gas ride, I'd look at there two
226/242
or
230 / 246
I don't like lift so mine is sub .600 your valvetrain life will and may vary. Oh and you better have some serious springs in that bad boy if you want to do standard lift .650 and over 7000 RPM, checkum change um every 20K miles, inconel valves (or titanium). I like the conical springs myself. As NOTHING on the stock valvetrain is usable IMO.
https://www.compcams.com/conical-val...2-at1-170.html

Just an example I have no idea which one will work for your inconel / titanium valve, titanium retainer setup.

I like the NK844 stuff:https://www.lsxceleration.com/manley...alves-12352-8/

I like this as it is solid, the factory LT4 titanium is great and all, but at some point with valve bounce and abuse a solid valve of similar strength material (way heavier) is going to be better, just realize it is going to take even more spring to control it, at least the head is undercut slightly.

Inconel for the exhaust
https://www.lingenfelter.com/product...l#.XiJNXshKguU
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2018 Stage 2, P1C, 4.0 pulley, Pray ported heads, Pray stage 1 blower cam, TxSpeed valvetrain, Katech ported 87mm TB, ported MSD, 1 and 7/8 headers

2019 stage 3: Forged short block 11.5 CR, huge duration sub .600 lift Cam Motion cam, Pray Ported Heads, 3.85 pulley D1X, stage II intercooler, 2 BOVs, DSX secondary low side, DSX E85 sensor, Lingenfelter big bore 2.0, CA-offroad pipe, 60609 Borla, Lingenfelter injectors, ZL1 driveshaft and half shafts, Katech ported TB,MSD intake, BTR valvetrain.

Last edited by oldman; 01-17-2020 at 07:14 PM.
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Old 01-20-2020, 01:56 AM   #24
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Right Camshaft Specs for a 427 CI LT1 Texas Speed Long Block, Procharger D1X?

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldman View Post
Yes that cam is for a centri, true that, and a bigger engine can take a larger cam, true that. But that "race cam for the track" right from the description. i.e. it gets towed. Is that what you want? On pump gas and 10.5 CR, it may offer NO HP on the top end vs a smaller cam, now on E85 / meth and 14 PSI of boost at 7000 RPM it would be up dunno say 50 HP over a 3/4 street cam.

"Cam will have an aggressive, race car type idle and strong upper midrange and upper RPM power. This camshaft must be used in vehicles equipped with properly selected headers, high flow exhaust, increased stall speed torque converter and high flow intake systems.

If you are looking for an excellent mild race cam for the track, this camshaft is a great choice."

Note the "race car type idle",

Even CM's super hot 232 / 250 which is for a max effort 6.2 is VASTLY smaller than the cam you are looking at. The only thing that you matched is the your engine size, which is really a secondary consideration, as a smaller engine can be spun higher.

Ligenfelter is making over 1400 HP on their GT35 cam
https://www.lingenfelter.com/mm5/gra...20Kit%20v1.jpg

Specifications: intake/exhaust
Duration @ .050 valve lift 210 / 237
Lift with 1.8 rocker .640 .650 LSA 116.5
6.5 mm fuel pump lobe

If you are Joe Normal and this a pump gas ride, I'd look at there two
226/242
or
230 / 246
I don't like lift so mine is sub .600 your valvetrain life will and may vary. Oh and you better have some serious springs in that bad boy if you want to do standard lift .650 and over 7000 RPM, checkum change um every 20K miles, inconel valves (or titanium). I like the conical springs myself. As NOTHING on the stock valvetrain is usable IMO.
https://www.compcams.com/conical-val...2-at1-170.html

Just an example I have no idea which one will work for your inconel / titanium valve, titanium retainer setup.

I like the NK844 stuff:https://www.lsxceleration.com/manley...alves-12352-8/

I like this as it is solid, the factory LT4 titanium is great and all, but at some point with valve bounce and abuse a solid valve of similar strength material (way heavier) is going to be better, just realize it is going to take even more spring to control it, at least the head is undercut slightly.

Inconel for the exhaust
https://www.lingenfelter.com/product...l#.XiJNXshKguU
Selection of an appropriate camshaft was a major topic of discussion with the performance shop handling a major build for my 2017 Camaro SS A8 Coupe, where I asked them to balance power for strip with driveability for street, so this thread really interested me and I would like an opinion. Although it is a bit after the fact, I would like some opinions as to whether the custom spec-d shaft is right fit for engine and application. (I will get car back in a few days after waiting nearly 3 months for project so I will refer back to this conversation). A new Texas Speed 427CI LT1 Darton-sleeved long block with all forged internals, ported CNC LT1 heads, Johnson 2110R lifters, etc. is the platform. I upgraded from a P1X to a D1X Procharger w/Stage2 intercooler and Race BPV after switchout of OEM 376CI. Fuel system is LT4 injectors, LT4 high side pump, DSX low side, meth injection. Kooks 1 7/8 FLT headers, cat delete, BorlaS is exhaust. FTI 3200rpm torque converter added-I wanted lower stall speed vs higher (so don't blame them).

Here are the FI cam specs per builder intended to produce decent HP/solid torque but not be peaky, very good drive-ability, modest lopey idle:

Custom TSP Camshaft w/32% Fuel Lobe
.229/.244 .635/.635 115 +5

On 93 pump with meth, it yields 806 RWHP/705 RWTQ. With E-85 attains another 20-30HP, but fuel system limits E85% to 50% or less (30-40% they recommend after dyno & street tuning done). Dyno charts provided - 2nd graph is E85 tune revised for fuel system limits at top end . BTW the base was 502 RWHP on OEM LT1 w/P1X & headers (& bad tune by original installer shop in MD).

Good choice?
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Old 01-20-2020, 04:09 AM   #25
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I’m seriously jelly, that is an awesome graph.... a 427 that pulls to 6800 rpm.... your going to need 888r or dr tires.....
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2018 Stage 2, P1C, 4.0 pulley, Pray ported heads, Pray stage 1 blower cam, TxSpeed valvetrain, Katech ported 87mm TB, ported MSD, 1 and 7/8 headers

2019 stage 3: Forged short block 11.5 CR, huge duration sub .600 lift Cam Motion cam, Pray Ported Heads, 3.85 pulley D1X, stage II intercooler, 2 BOVs, DSX secondary low side, DSX E85 sensor, Lingenfelter big bore 2.0, CA-offroad pipe, 60609 Borla, Lingenfelter injectors, ZL1 driveshaft and half shafts, Katech ported TB,MSD intake, BTR valvetrain.
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Old 01-20-2020, 09:36 AM   #26
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Nice power curve and Good choice on cam selection...damn close in specs to what I suggested earlier . Goes to show that even in a 427 you don't need a big cam camshaft for a FI build to make big power.
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Old 01-20-2020, 03:52 PM   #27
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I suspect my cam with 6.2 liters and LT peak HP was around 6800 to 7000 RPM, especially with E85 tune. Looking at the much bigger 427 with smaller cam... yep bout right.
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2018 Stage 2, P1C, 4.0 pulley, Pray ported heads, Pray stage 1 blower cam, TxSpeed valvetrain, Katech ported 87mm TB, ported MSD, 1 and 7/8 headers

2019 stage 3: Forged short block 11.5 CR, huge duration sub .600 lift Cam Motion cam, Pray Ported Heads, 3.85 pulley D1X, stage II intercooler, 2 BOVs, DSX secondary low side, DSX E85 sensor, Lingenfelter big bore 2.0, CA-offroad pipe, 60609 Borla, Lingenfelter injectors, ZL1 driveshaft and half shafts, Katech ported TB,MSD intake, BTR valvetrain.
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