[newmoon]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

2021 Corvette Grand Sport. There won’t be a need for a Camaro answer.

So the Camaro is officially done?

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

You DON'T know for a fact that the GT500 will beat anything in a straight line because you have not seen it perform or ran on any track besides a video of some dude with a stop watch. You are guessing. And your guess is no better than mine.

The $64K ZL1 is going to beat the $74K Base GT500. The $70K ZLE is going to destroy the $74K Base GT500 AND it is going to beat the $94K CF GT500. THAT is your answer.

I'll ask you. What does Ford have that costs under $75K that can beat the ZLE? Oh wait that is not fair. Sorry. Let me change that. What does Ford have that costs under $80K that can beat the ZLE? Wait, that still isn't fair. My bad. WHat does Ford have that costs less than $85K that can beat the ZLE? Dammit, I did it again. I'm cheating. Sorry again. I'll be more fair this time. Promise. So, what does Ford have that costs under $90K that can beat a ZLE? Oh crap. Let me get this right. I'll try one more time. What does Ford have that costs under $94K that can beat a ZLE?? Around a track?

I answered your question so answer mine.

You just cant stop talking about the ZLE that nobody wants because it rides like a brick, hell there are 10k discounts on it to move them off the lots. What about the ZL1 you know the car people can actually live with while not on a track. I said it before if the 500 has to ride like a tank, literally violently beating up the driver on the street to beat the ZLE track times I hope they don't offer it.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

2021 Corvette Grand Sport. There won’t be a need for a Camaro answer.

Originally Posted by newmoon

So the Camaro is officially done?

Not at all. The Shelby GT500 is Ford’s answer to Corvette. The C8 line of Corvettes is and will be the response to GT500, especially once you move beyond the Stingray. C8 Grand Sport will be the track beast that lines up fender to fender with GT500 CFTP and probably at lower price. Z06 will be overkill. ZR1 will spike the ball.

Camaro has left its answer to Mustang GT on the streets since 2016 and save for the GT*, the answer has held up nicely. FWIW, I see more GT350 than PP1 on the street, so there are not a lot of GT* hangin’ around. I meet see 1 PP1 per week. And I live spitting distance from Ford World HQ where a lot of Mustangs are company cars or employee discount cars.

Corvette and Shelby Mustangs have a rivalry dating back to the late ‘60s when Ford ended the Cobra and the GT350 and GT500 stepped into the void. There are books written about the on track rivalry.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/1967...sting-ray-427/

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Not at all. The Shelby GT500 is Ford’s answer to Corvette. The C8 line of Corvettes is and will be the response to GT500, especially once you move beyond the Stingray. C8 Grand Sport will be the track beast that lines up fender to fender with GT500 CFTP and probably at lower price. Z06 will be overkill. ZR1 will spike the ball.

Camaro has left its answer to Mustang GT on the streets since 2016 and save for the GT*, the answer has held up nicely. FWIW, I see more GT350 than PP1 on the street, so there are not a lot of GT* hangin’ around. I meet see 1 PP1 per week. And I live spitting distance from Ford World HQ where a lot of Mustangs are company cars or employee discount cars.

Corvette and Shelby Mustangs have a rivalry dating back to the late ‘60s when Ford ended the Cobra and the GT350 and GT500 stepped into the void. There are books written about the on track rivalry.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/1967...sting-ray-427/

So if the Corvette is the competition for the Shelby, which I haven't heard of this since maybe the late 60s, and the SS the GT, where does that leave the ZL1?

I do understand pricing will have the Corvette close to Shelby pricing but hasn't that always been the case? The 7th Gen Corvette was similar in pricing to the GT350 yet I don't recall anyone stating they were direct competitors.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

Ford has claimed sub 11 second 1/4 mile. It's more than just a guess that the GT500 will beat the ZL1 in a straight line.

And you're acting, again, as I have pointed out previously, that performance around a track is all that matters. It's not. Performance-wise, it is at most 50% of what matters (straight line performance being the other half). To most people acceleration is more important than a Ring or VIR time. Whether the base GT500 beats the ZL1 and CFTP G500 beats a ZLE around a track remains to be seen. But that is not the end-all be-all. You have your predictions, and nothing wrong with that, but acting as if acceleration does not matter is blind to the overall performance of the cars. As I've stated previously, Billy Johnson said in an interview Ford Performance took a lot of performance testing data to make sure the GT500 was faster than its competitors. We'll see.

Also, as to why someone would buy a GT500 over a less expensive ZL1 - There's other factors, like acceleration, styling, exclusivity, brand loyalty, the way a car makes them feel, interior design, ergonomics, etc. Also, high horsepower costs money. You can't expect a 760 hp car to cost the same as a 650 hp car, regardless of on track performance. I know, the R has less hp but costs more than a ZL1...the FPC engine is expensive and hand built and CF wheels aren't cheap.

The GT350 sells because people like it. The R sells for the same reason. They are both extremely well balanced and sorted out cars, esp the R. Buyers don't care that a ZL1 could go a bit faster around a track than the R (The ZL1 and the R are very close around a track as proven when Pobst drove both H2H for MT). The R is a different driving experience with the high revving FPC V8. To each his own with regards to the two cars.

I think that the point you’re missing, and has been pointed out numerous times, is that world class driving dynamics with 12.0 straight line acceleration is valued more than a sloppy chassis that is capable* of 0.1 sec advantage in a straight line.

We are ok with our Camaros. I’m so pleased

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by newmoon

You just cant stop talking about the ZLE that nobody wants because it rides like a brick, hell there are 10k discounts on it to move them off the lots.

And you just can't stop talking about the GT500 that you can't afford even if it had a $10K discount.

Originally Posted by newmoon

I said it before if the 500 has to ride like a tank, literally violently beating up the driver on the street to beat the ZLE track times I hope they don't offer it.

It shouldn't matter how it rides to you because you are not getting one anyway. GM did not make the ZLE so that sensitive people like yourself could enjoy a nice lazy Sunday drive. It was made to be an extreme track car. And that it is. It was not made for people like yourself. And frankly you're right to steer clear of it because you obviously can't handle it. Sorry for you.

So you basically want to compare the CF GT500 to the standard ZL1 I take it. because you want to count out the ZLE and the C8. So ok. Let's compare the $94,000 CF GT500 to the standard $64,000 ZL1.

The GT500 might beat the ZL1 in a straight line but that depends on if it can get the power to the ground effectively. If it can't then it will be just like the Hellcat...loads of HP with a high 11 sec quarter mile. That is until someone shady *cough Evans cough* gets their hands on it. EVen then if it does manage a win it will be by maybe about 4 tenths. So congrats. $94K gets you a 4 tenth advantage over a $64K car. You must be proud.

Around a track that fat pig ain't gonna do a damn thing unless it is the track in the video that was posted which has long straights and basically no turns. That way the GT500 if it can handle even marginally decent will just be able to get thru some corners and then try to overwhelm the ZL1 on the straights. But I bet the GT500 is going to be playing catch up the whole time and will still lose.

So my prediction is that the standard $64K ZL1 will beat the $94K GT500 around a track but it might lose in the quarter mile. The fact that it is still doubtful whether the CF GT500 at $30K more and with 110 more HP will actually beat the Almighty King ZL1 says a lot.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by newmoon

So if the Corvette is the competition for the Shelby, which I haven't heard of this since maybe the late 60s, and the SS the GT, where does that leave the ZL1?

I do understand pricing will have the Corvette close to Shelby pricing but hasn't that always been the case? The 7th Gen Corvette was similar in pricing to the GT350 yet I don't recall anyone stating they were direct competitors.

Like I said, the GT500 will be on life support by the time the GS shows up. And it'll be in a casket by the time the Z06 arrives. And I bet the Z06 is cheaper than the CF GT500. The Redeye is gonna throat punch the GT500 in the quarter mile. The ZL1 is going to finish it off around a track. The ZLE is just gonna kick it while it is down. The C8 Z51 is then gonna swing around and put it out of it's misery finally. And then the GS is gonna cremate the thing. The Z06 will be there for the funeral. And the ZR1 will be there to exorcise any remaining spirits left behind.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

Yes, of course. But the ZR1 starts ~$30k above the CFTP GT500. They are not in the same price bracket. The CFTP GT500 is about the price of a Z06 with a few options.

This is true, but over 100k is over 100k no matter how you spin it, especially if adm's are taken into account. A z06 will wreck a GT 500 on a track but straight line should be pretty comparable. Z06 has been out since 2015 though and is down 110 hp.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by newmoon

So if the Corvette is the competition for the Shelby, which I haven't heard of this since maybe the late 60s, and the SS the GT, where does that leave the ZL1?

I do understand pricing will have the Corvette close to Shelby pricing but hasn't that always been the case? The 7th Gen Corvette was similar in pricing to the GT350 yet I don't recall anyone stating they were direct competitors.

Here's the way we played it in Competitor Intel at GM:

• Mustang EcoBoost -->Camaro LS / LT
• Mustang GT --> Camaro SS
• Shelby GT350 -->SS 1LE, ZL1
• Shelby GT350R --> ZL1 / ZLE
• Shelby GT500 --> Stingray Z51, Grand Sport
• Above Grand Sport (Z06, ZR1) Ford had nothing to be concerned about.

Whenever a new GT500 has been introduced it has been compared to the Corvette of the day. Mid - late 70s to early '80s not withstanding, when you were hard-pressed to get a Corvette over 200 hp or a Shelby Mustang of any variety.

When I was doing competitor intelligence at GM, the Camaro team cared about the GT350 / 350R. That is the ZL1/ZLE competitor. If ZL1/ZLE beat GT500, gravy.

The Corvette team considered the GT500 as a "secondary competitor". Basically, that would be a competitor that aspires to compete with you, but whom you do not target as a direct competitor. So, Porsche 911 all variants (there's like 72 of 'em, right?), Ferrari 488, McLaren 570s and 720, Lamborghini (multiple models), Audi R8 were considered direct competitors and we provided reams of info to the team on those products. GT500, Ford GT, Nissan GTR, Mercedes AMG GT, Acura NSX, Toyota Supra, a bunch of other stuff that I can't recall top of mind were considered secondary competitors. Basically, we told the team if they were doing anything interesting that they needed to know about, but as long as they "stayed in their lane" it was sort of a "yeah, we know they're out there" sort of vibe. Hit the primary targets and you don't have to worry about the secondary targets unless they find a way to punch above their weight class.

[shaffe]

I just want the car to start getting reviewed.

And even in the end, there's not many good ways to spin the results for Ford.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by newmoon

So if the Corvette is the competition for the Shelby, which I haven't heard of this since maybe the late 60s, and the SS the GT, where does that leave the ZL1?

I do understand pricing will have the Corvette close to Shelby pricing but hasn't that always been the case? The 7th Gen Corvette was similar in pricing to the GT350 yet I don't recall anyone stating they were direct competitors.

I remember a few, at least one CD article, putting the c7 z51 against the gt350 with a track pack. To be fair they did label it an unlikely comparison and the c7 stomped it as it should have but price and powerwise they were comparable. The camaro and mustang are obviously the more common rivals but when a Shelby has the price tag of a Corvette ofcourse they're going to be compared to each other as well. Especially in 2015 and 2016 where there was no ss 1le or zl1 yet.

The gt500 is in a place price and power wise where it will probably be compared and crossshopped against zl1/zle's and corvettes.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

And lol at people crying about zl1 1le drivability. Quite a few people dd them, old men with bad backs shouldn't have even considered one.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

I remember a few, at least one CD article, putting the c7 z51 against the gt350 with a track pack. To be fair they did label it an unlikely comparison and the c7 stomped it as it should have but price and powerwise they were comparable. The camaro and mustang are obviously the more common rivals but when a Shelby has the price tag of a Corvette ofcourse they're going to be compared to each other as well. Especially in 2015 and 2016 where there was no ss 1le or zl1 yet.

The gt500 is in a place price and power wise where it will probably be compared and crossshopped against zl1/zle's and corvettes.

Here is how they line up MSRP wise with 0 extra options

GT500 - 73,995 includes destination + gas guzzler
ZL1 Auto - 66,690 includes destination + gas guzzler
Hellcat RE -73,440 includes destination + gas guzzler
RE Widebody -79,440 includes destination + gas guzzler (threw this in bc some people say why get the RE without the widebody)

C8 - 59,995 includes destination

If those are my choices all the "pony" cars are pretty close, ZL1 best balanced, lowest price but also less HP than the other two and probably slowest in the 1/4.

If I am spending that kind of coin on a car, I am most likely looking right at the C8 though. Even though it would be the slowest most likely, to me corvette > other choices lol.

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by hotlap

I think that the point you’re missing, and has been pointed out numerous times, is that world class driving dynamics with 12.0 straight line acceleration is valued more than a sloppy chassis that is capable* of 0.1 sec advantage in a straight line.

We are ok with our Camaros. I’m so pleased

Mustang guys dont get it. They dont understand. In their world everything starts and ends with Mustang. I'm perfectly happy to be .1 behind the GT* that I have never even seen on the streets.