[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by Ragnar

Another thing with rebates is, it can help offset some negative equity from a trade. When I sold at the dealership, sometimes we would go from a used car to a new car, because of the rebate. When someone was trading, the first question was, what do you owe on it? A rebate is like having additional down payment, banks become happier.

Right, but if the rebate and discount pricing are the same, wouldn't it work out to be the same payment? Think that was the point that confused Ford about the program's lack of success. Basically they said they wouldn't do it anymore (the friends and family event).

[MovieGuy]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

Right, but if the rebate and discount pricing are the same, wouldn't it work out to be the same payment? Think that was the point that confused Ford about the program's lack of success. Basically they said they wouldn't do it anymore (the friends and family event).

The choices I had were $4,000 rebate OR $2000 rebate AND 0% financing.
The total cost of my financing if I would have taken it to maturity would be $2,300. I took the bigger rebate, because I never make minimum payments, so I knew I would pay less than the $2300. By paying it off 3 years early I paid a lot less than the $2,000 I would have paid for the 0% financing.

A lot of dealers don't understand this. The idiot I dealt with kept saying "Why would you take a $2,000 rebate when you can have a $4,000 rebate." whenever I said I wanted to look at the 0% financing.

[motorhead]

Originally Posted by SS 1LE

That's false. I mean are you on other car forums? Every forum has a problems section for just that, problems. Every car forum I've ever been on has people with issues. When the S550 Mustang first came out I was going to buy one and spent lots of time on M6G, there were tons of issues (and bigger ones then here) with those cars. Gobs of transmission issues, diff vibrations that couldn't be traced, thin leather falling apart, SYNC issues, engine ticks, etc, etc...first year cars can have issues, (heck, last year cars can too of course), and in 99% of the cases they can be fixed, and then the fixes are implemented for future production. You make like the 6th gen is not the norm, and in reality it is. People bitch about issues on forums, they don't post how they have no problems.




That is incorrect. While the 4th gen sales weren't fantastic, there was a decent amount of profit being made as that cars platform could be traced back to the 3rd gen and the early 80's. The issue as to why production stopped was that the cars platform couldn't support the mandatory upcoming government standards for a variety of things and the factory in Canada had a capacity/unit minimum that wasn't going to work with that car in the future. GM chose to invest in SUV's as they were booming at that time.

The 6th gen has a shared platform with the ATS and CTS and a few possible forthcoming cars to share costs. Too many people think they are economists for GM and act like they know what their net profit rate is on these cars, and they don't. Sales numbers do not always equate into profits as a flat ratio. There are many variables. Ford doesn't use that platform for more then one car, so that eats up profits, plus we have no idea how GM works their profit range on the 6th gen. Ford may make (hypothetically) $5000 on each Mustang they sell, but GM may make $8000 on each Camaro they sell. So even if GM sells less, then can make more in their pockets.

There is so much speculation on "sales" numbers on this forum from people who really don't have the slightest way of knowing GM's profit structure...

Goverment regulations change all the time if the car was worth keeping they would have. The Mustang seemed to adapt to whatever regulations came down the pike. It never left. I can tell you that if it wasn't for firebirds and trans ams the gen four car would have been gone sooner. Sure the Camaro sold more, but with firebird there was 320,257 folks that wouldn't have been buyers because the 4th gen Camaro was just too ugly. I was one of them a couple of times.
The demise was met when the factory expected to produce many more then they were and it was bleeding money from GM. Their saving grace now is that they don't put all their eggs in one basket in factories these days. But for sure, if this car isn't profitable it will be gone. Companies aren't in business to lose money. I hope it doesn't. I love the new car and will own one when the good models come out, but face it, Camaro sales have been flat even before the gen 6 car came out. If the numbers being produced is what GM was expecting then all is right with the world.

[BigGuy81]

Good. I hope sales continue to be low vs the Mustang. That should suppress the sale price, which will lower the value on the used market. Then my goal of a used $35K 2SS should come sooner rather than later.

[SS 1LE]

Originally Posted by motorhead

Goverment regulations change all the time if the car was worth keeping they would have. The Mustang seemed to adapt to whatever regulations came down the pike. It never left. I can tell you that if it wasn't for firebirds and trans ams the gen four car would have been gone sooner. Sure the Camaro sold more, but with firebird there was 320,257 folks that wouldn't have been buyers because the 4th gen Camaro was just too ugly. I was one of them a couple of times.

The thing is though they couldn't keep it. The platform would have needed a redesign as by around 2005/2006 model year all passenger cars had new laws regarding airbags and such, that couldn't be implemented into that platform.

The new S197 Mustang was already in mid development with this in mind by this time, and that is Ford's halo car as they don't have a Corvette competitor, so they "had" to keep it, SUV craze or not. They started development earlier as their previous platform can trace its roots back to the 70's. The SN95 was actually in some ways related to the Fox.

Plus, Camaro sales and Firebird sales end up being one in the same. It doesn't matter if one sells a little more or a little less as they are 90% the same car and made in the same factory...so sales totals and factory shift numbers are one in the same in that regard.

Looks are subjective. As I happen to think the 4th gen Firebird, especially in Trans Am trim was way overdone. The Camaro has a cleaner, sleeker look. But that is besides the point.

Originally Posted by motorhead

But for sure, if this car isn't profitable it will be gone. Companies aren't in business to lose money. I hope it doesn't. I love the new car and will own one when the good models come out, but face it, Camaro sales have been flat even before the gen 6 car came out. If the numbers being produced is what GM was expecting then all is right with the world.

Of course, but the sales numbers are far from "bad", especially with a shared platform. The biggest issue I have is people (not pinpointing you) talking out of their ass as if they have any clue what GM's profit structure is on this car. Car A selling 10000 vs car B selling 5000 doesn't mean car A made more profit by a long shot...

[merlin803]

Originally Posted by SS 1LE

The thing is though they couldn't keep it. The platform would have needed a redesign as by around 2005/2006 model year all passenger cars had new laws regarding airbags and such, that couldn't be implemented into that platform.

The new S197 Mustang was already in mid development with this in mind by this time, and that is Ford's halo car as they don't have a Corvette competitor, so they "had" to keep it, SUV craze or not. They started development earlier as their previous platform can trace its roots back to the 70's. The SN95 was actually in some ways related to the Fox.

Plus, Camaro sales and Firebird sales end up being one in the same. It doesn't matter if one sells a little more or a little less as they are 90% the same car and made in the same factory...so sales totals and factory shift numbers are one in the same in that regard.

Looks are subjective. As I happen to think the 4th gen Firebird, especially in Trans Am trim was way overdone. The Camaro has a cleaner, sleeker look. But that is besides the point.



Of course, but the sales numbers are far from "bad", especially with a shared platform. The biggest issue I have is people (not pinpointing you) talking out of their ass as if they have any clue what GM's profit structure is on this car. Car A selling 10000 vs car B selling 5000 doesn't mean car A made more profit by a long shot...

If you were "pinpointing" me about "talking out of their ass" about GM's profit structure, I have stated over and over that I don't have a clue to what their structure is, what their profit is per car, all I did was give a couple of examples of how they *could* make more profit per car sold based on GM's own statements that they built in more profit per sale.

That wasn't just pulled out of thin air, GM said they changed their direction to do this.

If they did indeed change their plan from previous years and from the competition then it really isn't an apples to apples comparison to compare cars sold this year to past years.

To what extent? None of us know.

[SS 1LE]

Originally Posted by merlin803

If you were "pinpointing" me about "talking out of their ass" about GM's profit structure, I have stated over and over that I don't have a clue to what their structure is, what their profit is per car, all I did was give a couple of examples of how they *could* make more profit per car sold based on GM's own statements that they built in more profit per sale.

That wasn't just pulled out of thin air, GM said they changed their direction to do this.

If they did indeed change their plan from previous years and from the competition then it really isn't an apples to apples comparison to compare cars sold this year to past years.

To what extent? None of us know.

Wasn't pinpointing you at all...if anything you made some more sense then others as you seem to know that sales numbers alone do not equate to hitting profit goals...

[merlin803]

Originally Posted by SS 1LE

Wasn't pinpointing you at all...if anything you made some more sense then others as you seem to know that sales numbers alone do not equate to hitting profit goals...

I hear ya

[Cuda7050]

I don't think sales figures are very good because Chevrolet dealers love the Camaro so much they want to keep them just for themselves. I have been rejected four times when requesting a test drive. Twice I was told "were getting ready to close" (it was 5:30 pm and the sign says they close at 6:00 pm), once I was told the owner wants the sales people to be stingy with test drives on the new Camaro and now my local dealer that I have bought five cars from just told me the car I had an appointment to drive today and has been parked on the back of the lot for three weeks was "not ready to test drive".

I have a high annual income and credit score over 800, yet no test drive for me? They must want to just keep these beautiful machines for themselves.

[Emoto]

Originally Posted by Cuda7050

I don't think sales figures are very good because Chevrolet dealers love the Camaro so much they want to keep them just for themselves. I have been rejected four times when requesting a test drive. Twice I was told "were getting ready to close" (it was 5:30 pm and the sign says they close at 6:00 pm), once I was told the owner wants the sales people to be stingy with test drives on the new Camaro and now my local dealer that I have bought five cars from just told me the car I had an appointment to drive today and has been parked on the back of the lot for three weeks was "not ready to test drive".

I have a high annual income and credit score over 800, yet no test drive for me? They must want to just keep these beautiful machines for themselves.

There has to be something here.

[SS 1LE]

Originally Posted by Emoto

There has to be something here.

Yeah, that is odd. I have driven two at my dealer, and even one at a dealer by family in NY. No questions asked...

[ChefBorOzzy]

Originally Posted by Cuda7050

I don't think sales figures are very good because Chevrolet dealers love the Camaro so much they want to keep them just for themselves. I have been rejected four times when requesting a test drive. Twice I was told "were getting ready to close" (it was 5:30 pm and the sign says they close at 6:00 pm), once I was told the owner wants the sales people to be stingy with test drives on the new Camaro and now my local dealer that I have bought five cars from just told me the car I had an appointment to drive today and has been parked on the back of the lot for three weeks was "not ready to test drive".

I have a high annual income and credit score over 800, yet no test drive for me? They must want to just keep these beautiful machines for themselves.

Odd.. I've test driven 3 at three different dealerships. I recently turned 29 and also have a high income, but they don't know that.. Lol. I don't go in dressed up or anything and have never had issues.

[Cuda7050]

Yea, you would think that I must look like a dirt bag or come across as some kind of A**hole, but I am just a regular Joe rolling up is a very clean 2012 Camaro SS sometimes wearing a full suit. Didn't have a problem like this when I bought my wife her Lexus or my daughter a new BMW. Whatever, I am gonna see if I can somehow talk the ford dealer out of charging an ADM on a GT 350.

[Emoto]

Originally Posted by Cuda7050

I don't think sales figures are very good because Chevrolet dealers love the Camaro so much they want to keep them just for themselves. I have been rejected four times when requesting a test drive. Twice I was told "were getting ready to close" (it was 5:30 pm and the sign says they close at 6:00 pm), once I was told the owner wants the sales people to be stingy with test drives on the new Camaro and now my local dealer that I have bought five cars from just told me the car I had an appointment to drive today and has been parked on the back of the lot for three weeks was "not ready to test drive".

I have a high annual income and credit score over 800, yet no test drive for me? They must want to just keep these beautiful machines for themselves.

Originally Posted by Emoto

There has to be something here.

I don't know if this will work or not, based on how difficult it is to type everything out, but if Cuda7050 would talk about this and say how he went about asking, etc., maybe we could help him figure out how to get test drives.