[Vigilante375]

About the Camaro "fizzling" away and not getting power increases like the Hellcat platform. That's because Dodge doesn't have anything about the Charger or Challenger in their lineup to compete against.

GM needs to walk a fine line to not step on the Corvette. Do something to make the Camaro better than a Corvette and those owners/fan boys will be up in arms complaining about why a Camaro gets more HP than their Corvette or gets something else that makes the Vette not able to keep up in the turns, etc.

[DevilsReject97]

Originally Posted by Vigilante375

About the Camaro "fizzling" away and not getting power increases like the Hellcat platform. That's because Dodge doesn't have anything about the Charger or Challenger in their lineup to compete against.

GM needs to walk a fine line to not step on the Corvette. Do something to make the Camaro better than a Corvette and those owners/fan boys will be up in arms complaining about why a Camaro gets more HP than their Corvette or gets something else that makes the Vette not able to keep up in the turns, etc.

They were dropping 700+ HP cars while they had the Viper.... it didn't stop them from doing it. Ford did the same with the Ford GT/Mustang GT 500.

The problem is GM always wants to protect the Corvette instead of producing what people want. The harsh reality is that the Corvette isn't everyone's cup of tea and many of us want trunk space and a little more interior space. I can't even sit in a C8 comfortably, much less drive it comfortably.

[Camfab]

Originally Posted by DevilsReject97

They were dropping 700+ HP cars while they had the Viper.... it didn't stop them from doing it. Ford did the same with the Ford GT/Mustang GT 500.

The problem is GM always wants to protect the Corvette instead of producing what people want. The harsh reality is that the Corvette isn't everyone's cup of tea and many of us want trunk space and a little more interior space. I can't even sit in a C8 comfortably, much less drive it comfortably.

You know that’s been the argument forever, and I believe it was true until the zl1 1le came about, then GM went back to business as usual and crap QC. I’ve owned many Vettes and two Vipers, loved the Vipers more than anything, but I was over the two seater “mid life crisis” cars. My roots are muscle cars, but I can tell you for the money you’re getting way more car when you buy a Vette or Viper. I can’t help it though, I just can’t get myself to like the regular C8, Z06 is cool but I’m not foaming at the mouth by any means. Demon 170 , 1000% yes !!!! A 632 COPO may very well be the bargain of the century. If the COPO 632 is continued this coming year, I’m selling my car and buying one.

[Vigilante375]

Originally Posted by DevilsReject97

They were dropping 700+ HP cars while they had the Viper.... it didn't stop them from doing it. Ford did the same with the Ford GT/Mustang GT 500.

The problem is GM always wants to protect the Corvette instead of producing what people want. The harsh reality is that the Corvette isn't everyone's cup of tea and many of us want trunk space and a little more interior space. I can't even sit in a C8 comfortably, much less drive it comfortably.

You know the Viper was way better off a car than a Challenger or Charger ever was. When the Viper was in production as the same time the Hellcat was just coming out and the Viper would destroy it in the turns and in a straight line. Dodge already knew they were discontinuing the Viper so they needed to get something ready to take its place.

The GT500 was still a Mustang, it had nothing else to compete against in Ford's lineup. What about the Ford GT you say? That would easily beat the GT500.

With Chevrolet always having the Camaro and Corvette, they've always needed to walk that fine line.

[2023ZL1]

Originally Posted by Camfab

Yeah you’re right what a disappointment, they “only” produced a 1025 HP car that virtually every piece was redeveloped that runs the qtr in 8 seconds. Boy did they screw the pooch….

Disappointment was towards the Camaro not Dodge, their stripes and decal packages are very mediocre.
Yes, it's fast at the drag strip, Yes, it's the only good last call vehicle they designed and built, No it's not worth $200,000-$300,000 with markups.
I'll take a Porsche GT4 or GT3 over the Demon 170 any day for that kind of money.
A Demon 170 at MSRP would be all right, worthwhile collector, better than a CE Camaro for sure.

[Camfab]

Originally Posted by Vigilante375

You know the Viper was way better off a car than a Challenger or Charger ever was. When the Viper was in production as the same time the Hellcat was just coming out and the Viper would destroy it in the turns and in a straight line. Dodge already knew they were discontinuing the Viper so they needed to get something ready to take its place.

The GT500 was still a Mustang, it had nothing else to compete against in Ford's lineup. What about the Ford GT you say? That would easily beat the GT500.

With Chevrolet always having the Camaro and Corvette, they've always needed to walk that fine line.

Yes, I can tell you the Viper community for the most part loved the Hellcats but was pissed at Dodge (mostly Kuniskis) for not developing the Viper engine further and essentially shifting gears to the Hellcats. Yes the Vipers days were numbered as most buyers aged. Dodge was loyal to the point that it lost market share because they would not adapt to the softer generation of drivers who needed an automatic and or paddle shifters and or cup holders and nanny controls. It is truly the last real drivers car, and exactly for those reasons it’s gone.
Viper ownership was like nothing that will likely ever happen again, the manufacturer, engineers, technicians and owners were a unit. What I experienced was somethng that was heaven for a gearhead like myself. Socializing with the designers and engineers of the car on a regular basis and actually having your feedback make a difference was something I know will likely never happen again. Good times

Sorry I’ve taken this thread way off track….. back to the regularly scheduled programming
So that Panther in the emblem is so cool…..

[arpad_m]

Originally Posted by Camfab

Dodge was loyal to the point that it lost market share because they would not adapt to the softer generation of drivers who needed an automatic and or paddle shifters and or cup holders and nanny controls. It is truly the last real drivers car, and exactly for those reasons it’s gone.
Viper ownership was like nothing that will likely ever happen again, the manufacturer, engineers, technicians and owners were a unit. What I experienced was somethng that was heaven for a gearhead like myself. Socializing with the designers and engineers of the car on a regular basis and actually having your feedback make a difference was something I know will likely never happen again. Good times

Thanks for the poignant reverie, Camfab.

It's the same playing out in every field, the best times fade into the masses catching on and vendors catering to their whims in the relentless quest for being able to legally take the most money from them. Once that happens, one must turn to something new to recreate these elysium moments. Yeah, I have an automatic trans in my Camaro, so I probably don't qualify as a true gearhead even though I learned on a stick car and drove only manuals for quite a while, but I can still appreciate the passion and the effort that went into the 6th gen.

By the way, the car industry had a very long run compared to, say, my profession, software development, where this beautiful era lasted only a decade or two, it fhat.

(EV fans will likely come and say that it's the new "playground" and we are luddites, but of course this isn't true.... but I won't derail the thread completely either, nice Panther logo in the black fender emblem indeed.)

[Camfab]

No disrespect to guys with auto’s and owning one has no bearing on being a gearhead. Having said that, what most in my generation and earlier consider a true drivers car will always be a manual variant. With that in mind, I will be the first to admit that the ten speed is without a doubt the best auto I have ever driven and was a very difficult decision in which to buy in the end.

[NYTMARE23]

Originally Posted by Camfab

No disrespect to guys with auto’s and owning one has no bearing on being a gearhead. Having said that, what most in my generation and earlier consider a true drivers car will always be a manual variant. With that in mind, I will be the first to admit that the ten speed is without a doubt the best auto I have ever driven and was a very difficult decision in which to buy in the end.

Agree here! Had the A10 not come out I would have absolutely gotten the M6. The M6 is without question more engaging but the A10 is a game changer, so that's what I went with. Don't regret it at all, just wish I was rich enough to have one of each!

[DevilsReject97]

Originally Posted by Camfab

No disrespect to guys with auto’s and owning one has no bearing on being a gearhead. Having said that, what most in my generation and earlier consider a true drivers car will always be a manual variant. With that in mind, I will be the first to admit that the ten speed is without a doubt the best auto I have ever driven and was a very difficult decision in which to buy in the end.

I went back and forth about buying an auto for about a year....and ultimately what swayed me was the simple fact that GM's 6spd in the ZL1 was ridiculously outperformed by the auto by almost half a second in the 1/4 mile.... not to mention the countless amount of posts/videos where the factory time couldn't be achieved real world by drivers....

Ultimately, as I plan to mostly drive it with the occasional 1/4 drags, the auto works out better for me. I would love to own one of each though!

[Camfab]

Not gonna lie, I’d love to own both. Very difficult to buy a car I knew was slower, but being the last Chevy manual pushed me that way.

[flexnet69]

Question: Probably lost out on Vivid Orange ZL1 6M order but was able to put a deposit on a 2SS Collectors Edition. Question is, Mods or No Mods on collectors edition, should it be kept stock? Thanks so much..Apologies if this is wrong forum..

[SnakeEyeSS]

Originally Posted by Camfab

You know that’s been the argument forever, and I believe it was true until the zl1 1le came about, then GM went back to business as usual and crap QC. I’ve owned many Vettes and two Vipers, loved the Vipers more than anything, but I was over the two seater “mid life crisis” cars. My roots are muscle cars, but I can tell you for the money you’re getting way more car when you buy a Vette or Viper. I can’t help it though, I just can’t get myself to like the regular C8, Z06 is cool but I’m not foaming at the mouth by any means. Demon 170 , 1000% yes !!!! A 632 COPO may very well be the bargain of the century. If the COPO 632 is continued this coming year, I’m selling my car and buying one.

Too bad it's not street legal.

[SnakeEyeSS]

Originally Posted by flexnet69

Question: Probably lost out on Vivid Orange ZL1 6M order but was able to put a deposit on a 2SS Collectors Edition. Question is, Mods or No Mods on collectors edition, should it be kept stock? Thanks so much..Apologies if this is wrong forum..

Depends on if you want the car for you or the next person.

No mods has ALWAYS been more collectible. The only exception I know of are certain Japanese and German cars, where specific things can make them more desirable, on German cars I'd call it "tasteful mods". Like the E30 had 14" inch wheels, but if you had 15 it opened a lot of options, so a few brands made 15" that were the same style as the 14". Or painting the black trim body color.

Get enough mods and you will actively scare buyers away. I have owned one of those. I took the guy for a ride(car was too much to just hand the keys over to anyone) and he was scared to death of the car after that. Some people know they can't handle hitting over 140 mph in a quarter mile.