[LesBaer]

Originally Posted by jessrayo

The article you are quoting is using a LT4 motor, not a LT1 motor. The LT4 motor has significantly less compression ratio. You can't make that much power on the LT1 unless you swap out the crank, rods, and pistons... The LT4 block is a 1000whp block.

What that article shows me is that the 1.7 can deliver 737 whp worth of air into an engine. As I said in my post you referenced, that is about all the stock LT1 motor can handle. And by the way, that is more than 100whp over a stock Z06 corvette off the showroom floor.

Plus they were using methanol on the Maggie, that makes a huge difference in temps....

We're taking about LT4 SC kits here, right? Not the engines. I'm aware of the forged internals being different in the engines, however if all of those components can be directly replaced into the LT1. They also used the same fuel on both to push them to their maximum output as a direct comparison. That's why they're using them on LT4 engines with E85. The point of this example is to show that with the same variables one blower can create more power than the other and it runs cooler.

"So with no other changes the Magnuson 2.3 liter makes almost 100 more rear wheel horsepower, has a much better top end curve, holds boost better, and runs cooler. Chevrolet made a mistake."

[jessrayo]

Originally Posted by LesBaer

We're taking about LT4 SC kits here, right? Not the engines. I'm aware of the forged internals being different in the engines, however if all of those components can be directly replaced into the LT1. They also used the same fuel on both to push them to their maximum output as a direct comparison. That's why they're using them on LT4 engines with E85. The point of this example is to show that with the same variables one blower can create more power than the other and it runs cooler.

"So with no other changes the Magnuson 2.3 liter makes almost 100 more rear wheel horsepower, has a much better top end curve, holds boost better, and runs cooler. Chevrolet made a mistake."

I thought we were talking about putting LT4 supercharger kits on a LT1 engine on this post. The engine the supercharger goes on makes all the difference in the world. If you want a reasonably priced build without changing the entire block (big money) then the LT4 supercharger will give all of the power the LT1 block can ever put out. Upgrading to a 2.3 supercharger will not make any difference on the dyno until you change internals on an LT1 motor. You can change the internals on a LT1 motor, if you do and you decide you want a motor that can make as big a dyno number as possible, then get a 2.3 or maybe the 2.9 whipple or a set of turbos. But what I'm saying is, if going in you don't plan on building a block then the 1.7 is all you need, there is no advantage to put on a bigger supercharger.

I guarantee you if you were to talk to the engineers at Chevy they will not agree with your vengeance racing guy who said, "Chevrolet made a mistake." The goal of the GM engineers was to built a reliable and warrantied car with about 580 whp, they did a great job, no mistakes here. The 1.7 works fine and has no trouble at all operating in this power range. To imply that the GM engineers went out to see how much power they could possibly squeeze out of a LT4 motor and somehow goofed when selecting a supercharger is ignorant. I have seen that article several times before and it irritates me every time I read that quote at the end of it. I don't personally know who made that quote or if it was taken out of context but I disagree with it. GM made no mistakes on the LT4 engine. The vengeance guy made a mistake when he opened his mouth... He needs to stay on the dyno and do what he is good at.

[LesBaer]

Originally Posted by jessrayo

I thought we were talking about putting LT4 supercharger kits on a LT1 engine on this post. The engine the supercharger goes on makes all the difference in the world. If you want a reasonably priced build without changing the entire block (big money) then the LT4 supercharger will give all of the power the LT1 block can ever put out. Upgrading to a 2.3 supercharger will not make any difference on the dyno until you change internals on an LT1 motor. You can change the internals on a LT1 motor, if you do and you decide you want a motor that can make as big a dyno number as possible, then get a 2.3 or maybe the 2.9 whipple or a set of turbos. But what I'm saying is, if going in you don't plan on building a block then the 1.7 is all you need, there is no advantage to put on a bigger supercharger.

I guarantee you if you were to talk to the engineers at Chevy they will not agree with your vengeance racing guy who said, "Chevrolet made a mistake." The goal of the GM engineers was to built a reliable and warrantied car with about 580 whp, they did a great job, no mistakes here. The 1.7 works fine and has no trouble at all operating in this power range. To imply that the GM engineers went out to see how much power they could possibly squeeze out of a LT4 motor and somehow goofed when selecting a supercharger is ignorant. I have seen that article several times before and it irritates me every time I read that quote at the end of it. I don't personally know who made that quote or if it was taken out of context but I disagree with it. GM made no mistakes on the LT4 engine. The vengeance guy made a mistake when he opened his mouth... He needs to stay on the dyno and do what he is good at.

What irritates me is the whole "GM shits gold bullion" attitude people take. They make plenty of mistakes. I'm definitely not a Vengeance racing guy nor am I planning on putting E85 in my car. But to think these engineers are infallible or neglect the constraints they have to work with, like costs and emissions standards isn't correct.

The engines are not that drastically different from each other and many, many people have already replaced the components, mainly the pistons, in the LT1 C7's. The article isn't even about the engines, it's to show the limitations of a smaller SC. If you're trying to decide between purchasing a SC today, why anyone in their right mind would buy one with the lowest ceiling is beyond me. The Vengeance guys are throwing darts at a dart board with E85, I know, I get it. But the point is to not limit yourself and plan your mods correctly.

If I had purchased the LT4 instead of the Magnuson I'd be at the same place I am now. I agree with that. But this winter, when I do a custom cam, my fuel system, pistons, rods, etc....then what? It would've been an expensive mistake if I chose the LT4.

[jessrayo]

Originally Posted by LesBaer

What irritates me is the whole "GM shits gold bullion" attitude people take. They make plenty of mistakes. I'm definitely not a Vengeance racing guy nor am I planning on putting E85 in my car. But to think these engineers are infallible or neglect the constraints they have to work with, like costs and emissions standards isn't correct.

The engines are not that drastically different from each other and many, many people have already replaced the components, mainly the pistons, in the LT1 C7's. The article isn't even about the engines, it's to show the limitations of a smaller SC. If you're trying to decide between purchasing a SC today, why anyone in their right mind would buy one with the lowest ceiling is beyond me. The Vengeance guys are throwing darts at a dart board with E85, I know, I get it. But the point is to not limit yourself and plan your mods correctly.

If I had purchased the LT4 instead of the Magnuson I'd be at the same place I am now. I agree with that. But this winter, when I do a custom cam, my fuel system, pistons, rods, etc....then what? It would've been an expensive mistake if I chose the LT4.

I really did laugh when I read your post. Love the "GM shits gold bullion comment" I'm not saying they don't make any mistakes but I 'm a big fan of what they are doing.

I'm with you, if you ever plan on putting in a custom forged bottom end and if you plan on chasing the horsepower numbers you can go farther with a 2.3 than a 1.7 but I think there are probably 3 guys out there running a bolt on supercharger kit on a stock block for every 1 that goes for a custom built shortblock. You just need to know what the long term plans are going into the build.

I still think if you know gong into your build that you are going to build a forged bottom end that you should run turbos. They just have a lot more power potential than superchargers. Somewhere in the middle is a build with some sanity and I kind of think it is the stock LT1 motor with the LT4 supercharger. But hey its just my opinion, I tend to get a little crazy most of the time.

[BlackinBlack]

Originally Posted by jessrayo

I really did laugh when I read your post. Love the "GM shits gold bullion comment" I'm not saying they don't make any mistakes but I 'm a big fan of what they are doing.

I'm with you, if you ever plan on putting in a custom forged bottom end and if you plan on chasing the horsepower numbers you can go farther with a 2.3 than a 1.7 but I think there are probably 3 guys out there running a bolt on supercharger kit on a stock block for every 1 that goes for a custom built shortblock. You just need to know what the long term plans are going into the build.

I still think if you know gong into your build that you are going to build a forged bottom end that you should run turbos. They just have a lot more power potential than superchargers. Somewhere in the middle is a build with some sanity and I kind of think it is the stock LT1 motor with the LT4 supercharger. But hey its just my opinion, I tend to get a little crazy most of the time.

I have been on this forum a long time. If anyone argues about jessrayo "street cred" on this subject you should search for his build history on his ZL1 on Camaro5.

The 1.9 on the LSA was dismissed as a "mistake" over and over. Jessrayo pushed that blower and went through many configurations including 2.3 blowers on the goal of making ridiculous reliable power. I believe like many they gain a new respect for the design when it is run within the design's limit.

As someone that drives a car with a LT4 I can say GM did right by the choice. HP is great but TQ is the fun on the street. The LT4 pulls like a NA massive cubic inch motor. There is not waiting for boost it is just massive power off idle to redline. Never have I driven a car with this type of power delivery. That said GM did not build the LT4 blower to make 1000 whp and to expect it to deliver that is not practical.

If I wanted peak HP I would go turbo or maybe a big centrifugal.

[LesBaer]

Originally Posted by jessrayo

I really did laugh when I read your post. Love the "GM shits gold bullion comment" I'm not saying they don't make any mistakes but I 'm a big fan of what they are doing.

I'm with you, if you ever plan on putting in a custom forged bottom end and if you plan on chasing the horsepower numbers you can go farther with a 2.3 than a 1.7 but I think there are probably 3 guys out there running a bolt on supercharger kit on a stock block for every 1 that goes for a custom built shortblock. You just need to know what the long term plans are going into the build.

I still think if you know gong into your build that you are going to build a forged bottom end that you should run turbos. They just have a lot more power potential than superchargers. Somewhere in the middle is a build with some sanity and I kind of think it is the stock LT1 motor with the LT4 supercharger. But hey its just my opinion, I tend to get a little crazy most of the time.

LOL...I hear you on the turbos, but that will be a long ways away if I even take it to that level. I think a SC is the best option for me. From the point I'm at now, I've priced out the parts and work to upgrade to forged internals and it's a lot more wallet friendly than I expected. When I planned out my car purchase and upgrades, the LT4 appealed to me because of its smaller footprint but it wasn't significantly cheaper and the build quality and design of the Maggie was top notch. I think I may have been the first non-vendor to add FI to this car, so you've got to think of how many headaches you're willing to deal with at this early stage of the game. No one was anticipating overheating issues with the gen6 but I didn't want to take any chances, especially since I knew that once I added performance mods once I would do it again.

I also think within the next couple of years there will be more offered in terms of fuel delivery solutions than we've got now. So I may wait a little longer before doing the injectors, but it should carry me through to that next stage.

[LesBaer]

Originally Posted by BlackinBlack

I have been on this forum a long time. If anyone argues about jessrayo "street cred" on this subject you should search for his build history on his ZL1 on Camaro5.

The 1.9 on the LSA was dismissed as a "mistake" over and over. Jessrayo pushed that blower and went through many configurations including 2.3 blowers on the goal of making ridiculous reliable power. I believe like many they gain a new respect for the design when it is run within the design's limit.

As someone that drives a car with a LT4 I can say GM did right by the choice. HP is great but TQ is the fun on the street. The LT4 pulls like a NA massive cubic inch motor. There is not waiting for boost it is just massive power off idle to redline. Never have I driven a car with this type of power delivery. That said GM did not build the LT4 blower to make 1000 whp and to expect it to deliver that is not practical.

If I wanted peak HP I would go turbo or maybe a big centrifugal.

You're the only one looking for drama. We're just talking about cars.

[cncmotors]

Hi, there. I am running a tuning shop in South Korea. We would like to try your kit on our SS but we would know how hard this installing work is.

[BlackinBlack]

Originally Posted by LesBaer

You're the only one looking for drama. We're just talking about cars.

No drama. Just stating jessrayo has an insane amount of experience on PD blowers and going real fast. His threads on Camaro5 about his ZL1 has a ton of great info.

BTW Les Baer..... any relationship to the firearm company?

[LesBaer]

Originally Posted by BlackinBlack

No drama. Just stating jessrayo has an insane amount of experience on PD blowers and going real fast. His threads on Camaro5 about his ZL1 has a ton of great info.

BTW Les Baer..... any relationship to the firearm company?

Oh I know, I've been enjoying all of his posts here too. Definitely appreciate talking through performance upgrades with someone who has experience beyond trying to decide "which cold air intake is better" lol

As for the name, it's just a screen name I've been using for a long time....no relation, just love my .45

[LibertyHill]

Great info from people with much more experience than I have, but no one has sold me away from the LT1 > LT4 conversion. Let's not forget the dyno and a concept called "area under the curve". Again, no expert, but I have never seen one that looks better for street performance.

[jessrayo]

Originally Posted by BlackinBlack

I have been on this forum a long time. If anyone argues about jessrayo "street cred" on this subject you should search for his build history on his ZL1 on Camaro5.

Thanks for the back-up. I'm really neglecting that Camaro5 board since I got this 2016. I'm planning on running the ZL1 at the Texas mile next month if I can get it to come together.

Originally Posted by LesBaer

LOL...I hear you on the turbos, but that will be a long ways away if I even take it to that level. I think a SC is the best option for me. From the point I'm at now, I've priced out the parts and work to upgrade to forged internals and it's a lot more wallet friendly than I expected. When I planned out my car purchase and upgrades, the LT4 appealed to me because of its smaller footprint but it wasn't significantly cheaper and the build quality and design of the Maggie was top notch. I think I may have been the first non-vendor to add FI to this car, so you've got to think of how many headaches you're willing to deal with at this early stage of the game. No one was anticipating overheating issues with the gen6 but I didn't want to take any chances, especially since I knew that once I added performance mods once I would do it again.

I also think within the next couple of years there will be more offered in terms of fuel delivery solutions than we've got now. So I may wait a little longer before doing the injectors, but it should carry me through to that next stage.

I'm definitely with you on being one of the first into the game with forced induction on a LT1 Camaro. I'm quite sure I'm the first non-shop owner to have turbos on a 2016. Mine is back in the shop getting a broken weld fixed right now. The first run at a new system always has some issues. I'm fine with that. Now AGP is machining bolt together parts rather than welding for any future kits....

I guess my whole point on this discussion of the LT4 kit is that the LT1 motor is much different than anything in the old Gen5 Camaro LS series. All of the LS motors could make a boatload of power on the dyno if you could get more air into the motor. Air was always what limited your power on a Gen5 LS motor. Yeah you had to change injectors to keep up but buying a bigger injector was pretty easy. Since this LT1 (and to a certain degree the LT4) came out very few builders are running out of air. And fuel upgrades on these direct injection motors are more complex and expensive than simply adding injectors. On the really crazy builds the fuel is not atomizing well due to the volume sprayed over such a short duration and the injectors are struggling to get the amount of fuel into the cylinder over a fraction of the time the old port injectors had to administer a pulse.

The second issue with the LT1 motor is it comes from the factory with 11.5 to 1 compression ratio. The closest thing GM has produced before this to a high compression V8 was the LS7 at 11 to 1. Generally more compression means more power and this new LT1 is extremely efficient with no boost. It is pretty close to being maximized on pump gas. And what that means to the aftermarket is as you put more air into the cylinder with forced induction you have to roll the timing back out of optimal efficiency range to prevent detonation. Yes you can get more air in the engine but because of the timing adjustment you have less efficiency. The more you boost it... the farther it falls out of the optimal range. You really are getting diminishing returns with more boost on a stock LT1. Conversely the LT4 has 10 to 1 compression ratio stock and can go up to about 15 pounds of boost before it even hits peak efficiency. If I change the bottom on my car I would not run the same compression pistons, I would reduce to at least 10.5.

That is my point on this LT4 supercharger kit thread. The LT4 supercharger is probably the most efficient blower you are going to be able to put on the stock LT1 motor. It can even handle fuel updates to over 700 whp. With the previous generation GM motors more air capacity was always useful and it was easy to build into it. This LT1 engine is not really that way. It has to be completely reworked to the tune of probably $20K at least to be able to use any more air capacity available from the larger FI systems.

I got some pretty expensive turbos on my 2016 thinking I was going to start out with 750+ whp but as we started working through the issues I describe above here I realized I was going to need a completely new bottom end to hit that kind of power numbers. I kind of think I'm with the majority of people that want to mod the car without completely rebuilding a perfectly good engine.

[BravoMyles]

Damn, yall are making me rethink the larger Maggie or Edelbrock and consider going with just the LT4. If the stock block can only handle what that'll throw at it, I might as well do that for the cost, especially being 45 minutes from ADM. Then a few years from now decide if I wanna go bigger and push it from there. LT4 will probably suit my wants for now.

[JANNETTYRACING]

There is no question size does matter in this case.

The 2.3 is a better fit to the engine and room to grow way beyond the smaller options.

Now Whipple is releasing the 2.9 and we could not be more excited about a supercharger release.

Ted.