07-16-2018, 09:00 PM | #141 |
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If it were not for credits, we’d all be driving Corollas and Fiestas. The alternative is “meet the standard or don’t sell vehicles”.
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07-16-2018, 09:19 PM | #142 |
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I feel the theory of CAFE is noble, but the method in which it's practiced is shameful.
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07-16-2018, 09:58 PM | #143 | |
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By letting automakers accumulate and sell credits, it creates incentive for going above and beyond the standard. And there isn't really anything to be gained by not allowing it. The over achievers would slack off, while the ones that were buying credits have to dump money into R&D or shift their product mix to something more efficient. In the end, they still end up averaging the same thing but with less variety along every Dealership Alley. As Bob Lutz likes to say ... CAFE is like fighting obesity by restricting pant size.
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__________________ Originally Posted by FbodFather My sister's dentist's brother's cousin's housekeeper's dog-breeder's nephew sells coffee filters to the company that provides coffee to General Motors...... ........and HE WOULD KNOW!!!!__________________ Camaro Fest sub-forum |
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07-17-2018, 06:36 AM | #144 |
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My point is it has become so watered down and full of loopholes and money changing hands like everything else politicians touch. Bob Lutz is right. Very smart guy. I love his editorial in the one car mag every month. He doesn’t pull punches.
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07-17-2018, 07:01 AM | #145 | |
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When laws are made governing technologies that the leaders who make the laws don’t understand and governing businesses the leaders don’t understand, bad things can happen. On the surface, setting targets for average fuel economy makes sense. Until you start to realize that different vehicle types exist for a reason and the laws of physics don’t change and will always apply. The various credits have been added like a patchwork quilt to address over-reach in the laws as originally put in place. For giggles and grins, let’s look at California....They had a very real smog problem. I get it. Something needed to be done. So California MANDATED that every automaker selling vehicles in California had to have 10% of their sales be electric vehicles. This was the original ZEV Mandate. ZEV is Zero Emissions Vehicle. One problem....nobody had developed or produced a commercially viable electric vehicle by the time of the first ZEV Mandate. Ignore for a minute the fact that automakers can’t force consumers to BUY 10% EV, even if they could produce them and let’s just fast forward past the whole GM EV1 thing and land on some of the “adjustments” to the original ZEV Mandate. Today we have classifications of vehicles from ZEV (EVs and Fuel Cells) to Partial Zero Emissions Vehicle’s (PZEV) which includes hybrids like Prius that can drive small parts of their drive cycle with the engine off and Advanced Technology PZEV (AT-PZEV) which includes Chevrolet Volt and some Plug-in Hybrids that can drive significant parts of their drive cycle with the engine off, thus partial zero. We also have Low Emissions Vehicles, Ultra Low Emissions Vehicles and Super Ultra Low Emissions Vehicles (LEV, ULEV, and SULEV if you’re keeping up). Each one of these alphabet soup classifications are worth varying amounts of credit to the automakers. Some ZEV vehicles, Fuel Cells like the Honda Clarity FC, the Toyota Mirai, and the Hyundai Tucson FC count as much as 5 vehicles towards credits. So, over-simplifying, for every Mirai Toyota leases (you can’t BUY one) Toyota could sell 5 more Tundras. For every Chevrolet Bolt EV GM sells in California or the 17 states that abide by California rules, they’d get credit for 3 vehicles and could sell 3 more Suburbans. Or Camaros. That credit ratio reduces over time to give automakers incentive to make fuel cells and EVs earlier more than later. Each of the other classifications would receive fewer credits than the ZEV or AT-PZEV vehicles, and all would ramp down over time. So that’s how the original “everybody has to sell 10% EVs, even though nobody knows how to make one yet” got morphed into something way more complicated, but that actually makes more sense and allows for automakers leeway to make vehicles people actually want to buy. And yes, Bob is right. We’re restricting pants sizes. But at least now you can still get jeans, khakis, and pleats or no pleats.
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2017 CAMARO FIFTY SS CONVERTIBLE
A8 | MRC | NPP | Nav | HUD | GM Performance CAI | Tony Mamo LT1 V2 Ported TB | Kooks 1-7/8” LT Headers | FlexFuel Tune | Thinkware Q800 Pro front and rear dash cam | Charcoal Tint for Taillights and 3rd Brakelight | Orange and Carbon Fiber Bowties | 1LE Wheels in Gunmetal Gray | Carbon Fiber Interior Overlays | Novistretch bra and mirror covers | Tow hitch for bicycle rack | Last edited by Martinjlm; 07-17-2018 at 07:11 AM. |
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07-17-2018, 11:13 AM | #146 |
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07-17-2018, 11:41 AM | #147 | |
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2017 CAMARO FIFTY SS CONVERTIBLE
A8 | MRC | NPP | Nav | HUD | GM Performance CAI | Tony Mamo LT1 V2 Ported TB | Kooks 1-7/8” LT Headers | FlexFuel Tune | Thinkware Q800 Pro front and rear dash cam | Charcoal Tint for Taillights and 3rd Brakelight | Orange and Carbon Fiber Bowties | 1LE Wheels in Gunmetal Gray | Carbon Fiber Interior Overlays | Novistretch bra and mirror covers | Tow hitch for bicycle rack | |
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07-17-2018, 01:35 PM | #148 |
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You mean Camaro-Dreamers link? I merely quoted him.
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__________________ Originally Posted by FbodFather My sister's dentist's brother's cousin's housekeeper's dog-breeder's nephew sells coffee filters to the company that provides coffee to General Motors...... ........and HE WOULD KNOW!!!!__________________ Camaro Fest sub-forum |
07-17-2018, 06:22 PM | #149 |
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07-17-2018, 08:05 PM | #150 |
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07-17-2018, 09:00 PM | #151 |
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Only according to people who didn't understand what 'recoverable reserves' are (they are mostly dependant on the price of oil, not the availability of it). Or who believed that no new technology or innovation would make it possible to extract oil that was previously inaccessible (which is different proceeding as though technology will not magically save the day). The world will never run out of oil. But it can become so expensive to extract that its no longer viable as a fuel. And that cost doesn't have to be money, it could very well be energy. A barrel of oil has nearly 6 million BTUs of energy. If getting that barrel of oil out of the ground and refined into gasoline and diesel takes 6.1 million BTUs of energy (from any combination of sources), you're better off not extracting the oil in the first place.
But back to what you quoted. The issue in the oil crisis wasn't that the wells were drying up. Iran and other OPEC nations simply reduced their production. The reasons differed from 73 to 79, but the end result was pretty much the same either way. CAFE was intended to at least reduce America's dependence on these foreign sources of oil, specifically for gasoline (which middle east crude is particularly good for, in contrast to say Canadian tar sands which are better suited for industrial uses). It wasn't the only thing done, because complex problems require complex solutions. But that is the background, to the best of my knowledge.
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__________________ Originally Posted by FbodFather My sister's dentist's brother's cousin's housekeeper's dog-breeder's nephew sells coffee filters to the company that provides coffee to General Motors...... ........and HE WOULD KNOW!!!!__________________ Camaro Fest sub-forum |
07-17-2018, 09:34 PM | #152 | |
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As an example, Bill Nye is not an expert on climate change. Or space exploration. Or evolution. Or whatever else CNN has him talking about when they call him up. He is pretty knowledgeable in mechanical engineering, though given that he hasn't worked for Boeing in around 30 years I'm not sure if I'd even consider him an expert in that anymore. However, he IS an expert in science communication. He knows how to break subjects down to such a degree that children or even cable news watchers can understand. But that does not make him an expert in the subjects he is talking about. I'm done with this thread now. I've taken it too far off topic as is, not going to push it further.
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__________________ Originally Posted by FbodFather My sister's dentist's brother's cousin's housekeeper's dog-breeder's nephew sells coffee filters to the company that provides coffee to General Motors...... ........and HE WOULD KNOW!!!!__________________ Camaro Fest sub-forum |
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07-18-2018, 06:54 AM | #153 | |
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07-18-2018, 12:29 PM | #154 | |
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