[unavailablezl1]

Originally Posted by catdog

Ah.... finally i can see the path to future upgrades...
Life has meaning once again ...

I think the mid engine ZR1 would be far more special and revolutionary then the GT350R ever could be or even the GT500. And if that motor found its way into the ZL1 at 850 HP...goodness !!

Update:

If I could get a mid engine ZR1, I just might have a kidney to sell

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by newmoon

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think the question on whether the GT350R should be considered a special car will be decided in future used car values.

If history is any gauge on what values may be you can look at the 1993 Cobra R, and 2000 Cobra R which are presently holding values extremely well and in many cases far exceeding the original msrp. There is no reason to think that this GT350R will not follow the same.

Unfortunately the last product that GM has produced which may be in this same group would be the 1987 GNX, I can't see this 2017 ZL1 being any more desireable than than a 2012/2013 ZL1 is now.

Are they building Hummels? Open up production to satisfy demand and see where that goes. A ZL1 is a car to consume. They build lots of them so folks can actually own one.

[unavailablezl1]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Are they building Hummels? Open up production to satisfy demand and see where that goes. A ZL1 is a car to consume. They build lots of them so folks can actually own one.

I am hoping you mean Hummers, not Hummels....

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by unavailablezl1

I am hoping you mean Hummers, not Hummels....

No. I meant Hummels. I.e. special = collectables.

I don't want GM to build special cars that I stand no chance of ever owning. Like the 87 GNX in 1987

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by unavailablezl1

I think it is funny when Mustang people on here or Mustang6g, say the the ZL1 has so much more horsepower and should have killed the GT350R. Ok, so it has 124 HP more, a fact. And 221 more tq, a fact. But anyone that knows anything about cars, that increased speed in not proportional to increased HP. If a car has 500 hp and does the 1/4 mile in 11 seconds and the other car has 750 HP, that doesn't mean the 750 HP car is going to do the 1/4 mile in 8.25 seconds. Get real. Less weight = more speed with no more HP.

I know not everyone has heard of the 80/20 rule. But it does apply here. Every tenth of a second in the 1/4 mile takes incrementally more HP or less weight to get there.

That is true. But I do think that the margin by which the ZL1 beat the GT350R (0.39 seconds) is a pretty big margin. Maybe not for a beginner on a track. But when you're a pro and you're pushing both cars to their limits, that 0.39 seconds is very big.

Originally Posted by shaffe

I don't want to keep arguing the same points, but to me it seems like you are caught up in the now.

The 350R was built to beat the Z/28. It was an N/A focused track car built to compete with the cross town rivals N/A track car. They did and they did it cheaper than the Z/28. That was the cars mission.

Now that GM has the upper hand IMO doesn't take anything away from the 350R. It does not make it over priced, it does not make it less special. What does do is show how damn good the ZL1 is.

Perhaps you are right. But the GT350 was built in 2016 and the last Z28 was 2015. So they should not have been focusing on the previous generation Camaro knowing the new generation would be out with new and improved performance. And for that matter...the GT350R outperformed the Z28 and was offered at a better price...but the ZL1 destroys the previous Z28 AND the GT350R while offering more and better options AND coming in cheaper. So that kinda says a lot. And a lot of us have ZL1s. The GT350R is unattainable because they jack the prices way up. Outside of that you have the GT350 which is barely able to keep up with the SS 1LE (which is cheaper).

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

For the record I do not think you are a fan boy, your comment was just something I would see from one. You have expressed very solid reasons(which I agree with) for preferring GM, and fan boys have no reason outside blind loyalty.

I honestly agree with 95% of what you said above. Your reasoning behind special not being enough is spot on! It is special, but who really gives AF? To me, that special crap is just a line of BS GT350 owners feed themselves to sleep at night after parking their overpriced Mustang in their garage. They need to knock at least $10K off the MSRP for any of that to become relevant IMHO. The issues with that platform and the Mustang quality overall far exceed the benefit of being special at that price point, which I think is your point too.

Where I struggle is with knocking the GT350 on the fact that it is slower than the ZL1. I know it is Ford's fault that they are being compared, but I don't think they should be.

Thanks. And yea maybe by text book definition the GT350R really is special. Probably. But by my definition I don't think it is...or I don't feel that it is. And I also don't feel like it is worth the price they fetch. But that is because I'm looking at the overall performance of the car. It is track focused and pretty darn good I'll give it that. But it is only mediocre to good when it comes to everything else...when factoring the price of it. I feel that when you start getting into the price range of upper $60Ks, you should be doing everything well (except for the Hellcat).

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Both the Mustang and Camaro are in their 6th generation so the S550 isn't judged based on the old 5th gen Zeta. Chevy aimed higher and has performance in Alpha that dominates at every trim level.

The GT350 is a extreme design for what it actually delivered. The "most powerful naturally aspirated production Ford engine ever" with the "most track-credible brake system ever offered on a Ford" with "unique bodywork" "from the windshield forward" to "optimized the aero shape", "fine-tuned" "to increase downforce and cooling airflow"...

The SS-1LE "option box" is on par with the GT350TP. The GT350R's performance isn't stellar for the extreme design effort, or for its total msrp of $64,545 plus ADM

So answer me this then, how did you rate the Z/28s performance for its price of 75K?

Yes the cars are both in the 6th gen so they get compared to whats out there. I get that, I am not denying that. Yes the Camaro does outperform the Mustang in each trim level all the way through the line up. Not denying that. GM definitely set their internal bar higher and bravo to them for that. Hopefully Ford responds because competition makes everyone better.

Ford accomplished what they set out to do. GM set a higher standard internally and good for them. Still that doesn't to me at least take anything away from the 350R.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Perhaps you are right. But the GT350 was built in 2016 and the last Z28 was 2015. So they should not have been focusing on the previous generation Camaro knowing the new generation would be out with new and improved performance. And for that matter...the GT350R outperformed the Z28 and was offered at a better price...but the ZL1 destroys the previous Z28 AND the GT350R while offering more and better options AND coming in cheaper. So that kinda says a lot. And a lot of us have ZL1s. The GT350R is unattainable because they jack the prices way up. Outside of that you have the GT350 which is barely able to keep up with the SS 1LE (which is cheaper).

Yep like I said to hotlap, Ford probably should have set their internal bar higher like GM did but at the time the car was being designed and tested the Z/28 was the standard in N/A pony cars. Ford had to build something to one up it.

And again MAJOR props to GM for setting their internal standards as high as they have for performance. This is what happens when their is major competition

Also not only did GM build a bad ass ZL1, they have an even more bad ass version lurking so Ford really has their work cut out for them

[Mustang Fanboy]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Both the Mustang and Camaro are in their 6th generation so the S550 isn't judged based on the old 5th gen Zeta. Chevy aimed higher and has performance in Alpha that dominates at every trim level.

The GT350 is a extreme design for what it actually delivered. The "most powerful naturally aspirated production Ford engine ever" with the "most track-credible brake system ever offered on a Ford" with "unique bodywork" "from the windshield forward" to "optimized the aero shape", "fine-tuned" "to increase downforce and cooling airflow"...

The SS-1LE "option box" is on par with the GT350TP. The GT350R's performance isn't stellar for the extreme design effort, or for its total msrp of $64,545 plus ADM

Every new performance mustang has the most track-credible brake system, best suspension components, most potent engine, better aero etc. This happened on the previous cobra R's, the Boss and now the GT350. It's nothing new to Ford.

The GT350R is being compared to cars that heavily out-muscle it with horsepower and torque. This entire thread is comparing a supercharged camaro against a naturally aspirated mustang. What does that tell you?

The SS-1LE has never been tested against the GT350TP, so until it has...well truly never know how it compares. There are several examples already of track times being several seconds off by simply testing on separate days, so until they are tested side by side anything anyone says is a pure guess.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

That is true. But I do think that the margin by which the ZL1 beat the GT350R (0.39 seconds) is a pretty big margin. Maybe not for a beginner on a track. But when you're a pro and you're pushing both cars to their limits, that 0.39 seconds is very big.



Perhaps you are right. But the GT350 was built in 2016 and the last Z28 was 2015. So they should not have been focusing on the previous generation Camaro knowing the new generation would be out with new and improved performance. And for that matter...the GT350R outperformed the Z28 and was offered at a better price...but the ZL1 destroys the previous Z28 AND the GT350R while offering more and better options AND coming in cheaper. So that kinda says a lot. And a lot of us have ZL1s. The GT350R is unattainable because they jack the prices way up. Outside of that you have the GT350 which is barely able to keep up with the SS 1LE (which is cheaper).

0.39 seconds can be big, until you factor in tire wear and re-fueling. There are enough variables to make this gap less (or maybe more), but it's possible it could get uncomfortably close. For everyone besides a pro, what you really care about is how comfortable you are driving it near the limits. I'm curious to know how this would turn out, as it very will may favor the Zl1.

As for comparing previous VS current generations, you can say this same thing about this comparison. Why are the comparing the ZL1 against the GT350 when the GT500 is on the horizon? This after all is the real competitor to the ZL1. These comparisons will always be made, as they get the emotional juices flowing and sell magazines. Again, here we are comparing a supercharged camaro against a naturally aspirated mustang when they aren't truly direct competition.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Mustang Fanboy

0.39 seconds can be big, until you factor in tire wear and re-fueling. There are enough variables to make this gap less (or maybe more), but it's possible it could get uncomfortably close. For everyone besides a pro, what you really care about is how comfortable you are driving it near the limits. I'm curious to know how this would turn out, as it very will may favor the Zl1.

As for comparing previous VS current generations, you can say this same thing about this comparison. Why are the comparing the ZL1 against the GT350 when the GT500 is on the horizon? This after all is the real competitor to the ZL1. These comparisons will always be made, as they get the emotional juices flowing and sell magazines. Again, here we are comparing a supercharged camaro against a naturally aspirated mustang when they aren't truly direct competition.

I choose not to get into the "what ifs" because that is how things get messy. Could the GT350R have closed the gap? Maybe. Could the gap have gotten larger? Maybe. Anything anyone says is pure speculation.

I feel that this was a good comparison because it is showing the best that Ford has right now against the best that Chevy has right now. Plus they both are priced very close together with the GT350R being slightly more expensive. If Ford presents the GT500 and takes aim at the ZL1/ZL1 1LE, then they will need it to handle like the GT350R but have more power such as from forced induction. The problem is that will make it even more expensive. And then where does that leave people who paid $5K - $20K ADM for a GT350R? Where does it leave this special car that is now bested by a not-so-special car (GT500) a year later? Is the GT500 even coming out?

Also, lets not forget that the Z28 was pitted against the GT500 and that was a NA Camaro vs a forced induction Mustang. At that time it was the best offerings from both camps and those comparisons and results were accepted. So now the shoe is on the other foot.

[Mustang Fanboy]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I choose not to get into the "what ifs" because that is how things get messy. Could the GT350R have closed the gap? Maybe. Could the gap have gotten larger? Maybe. Anything anyone says is pure speculation.

I feel that this was a good comparison because it is showing the best that Ford has right now against the best that Chevy has right now. Plus they both are priced very close together with the GT350R being slightly more expensive. If Ford presents the GT500 and takes aim at the ZL1/ZL1 1LE, then they will need it to handle like the GT350R but have more power such as from forced induction. The problem is that will make it even more expensive. And then where does that leave people who paid $5K - $20K ADM for a GT350R? Where does it leave this special car that is now bested by a not-so-special car (GT500) a year later? Is the GT500 even coming out?

Also, lets not forget that the Z28 was pitted against the GT500 and that was a NA Camaro vs a forced induction Mustang. At that time it was the best offerings from both camps and those comparisons and results were accepted. So now the shoe is on the other foot.

Agree on the what if's.

I like the comparison, but even the mototrend staff commented on it being a bit of a mismatch. Because these design cycles are off between Ford and GM, we'll continue to get these mismatches.

[flyinlow]

As many have said, these cars are close, it comes down to the driver. Look at the Pirelli World Challenge, Andrew Aquilante campaigns a 2013 Boss 302 and in a few races has made others with better cars look bad.

For those not as old as me, this has been a classic battle since the Camaro was released in 1967 and historically, GM has always one upped Ford in this category, but its a constant battle that I enjoy. Ford will come out with the GT500, Chevy will one up them with the Z28. Its only in this last generation Mustang that Ford finally gets it, for years they catered to the drag racing crowd by refusing to go to an IRS when they easily could have. The 2005 Mustang was loosely based on the Ford DEW platform, which was an IRS platform, although heavily redesigned for the Mustang. Ford also made a big mistake switching to overhead cam motors. They thought they could do the "modular" thing and have a whole family of engines based off of the same tooling, as well as most of the mod motors were designed for front wheel drive applications. They found out quickly that GM and Chrysler were able to make plenty of horsepower and fuel mileage staying with pushrod motors, but unfortunately their path was set at that point as they had abandoned pushrod motors. An OHC motor is great for high revving applications, but its tough to get low end torque out of them, especially back in the late 90s early 2000's. Its easier now with the electronics, VVT to do it. Then there's the size and weight, OHC V8's are wide and heavy, unless you're making them all aluminum, which is expensive.

Still, with all of that, Ford has made a very good product in the GT350. I seriously considered buying one but couldn't get past the dealer BS. I'm in the Twin Cities in Minnesota and had dealers with the cars locked up in their showroom where I couldn't even sit in them, let alone drive them. The only way they would let me drive one is if I bought it. Yet I could go to a Chevy dealer and test drive a ZL1, Z06 without question. Mind you I make a very good living and am old enough to where a salesman knows I'm not jerking his chain or wanting to go for a joy ride, that I am a serious buyer. And then add on top of it the dealer markup on the GT350, forget about the GT350R.

At the end of the day the ZL1 is simply a better car when you look at the experience as a whole, what you get for the money and the buying experience. For the money guys are paying for a GT350R, you would be way ahead buying a Corvette Z06.

[Dethsupp0rt]

Originally Posted by flyinlow

Still, with all of that, Ford has made a very good product in the GT350. I seriously considered buying one but couldn't get past the dealer BS. I'm in the Twin Cities in Minnesota and had dealers with the cars locked up in their showroom where I couldn't even sit in them, let alone drive them. The only way they would let me drive one is if I bought it. Yet I could go to a Chevy dealer and test drive a ZL1, Z06 without question. Mind you I make a very good living and am old enough to where a salesman knows I'm not jerking his chain or wanting to go for a joy ride, that I am a serious buyer. And then add on top of it the dealer markup on the GT350, forget about the GT350R.

At the end of the day the ZL1 is simply a better car when you look at the experience as a whole, what you get for the money and the buying experience. For the money guys are paying for a GT350R, you would be way ahead buying a Corvette Z06.

Stop making sense.

Seriously, nearly 50 pages of mostly drivel, this is all anyone has to know. We old guys need to stick together.

Like I said a few posts back, what MT or any other magazine says is "better" is really irrelevant. I enjoy the tests and data as much (probably more) than the next guy, but it's really a wash, and what it comes down to is the experience and how either car makes you feel. No one can tell you that but yourself.

[Kurac]

Originally Posted by Realist

So you have a verbal agreement to buy a 350R which is great. You mentioned you will be trading in your 350. Not trying to insult you, just see many people claim they paid X $'s but fail to include all variables. Would have to know what you paid for the 350, what you owe on it and what the dealer is giving for the trade. Without this info, I question the MSRP purchase claim. Either way if you can get your hands on a 350r I say do it.

Was waiting till now to post...but just sold my Track Pack private sale for $54K. Bought it for $56,970 (bought 15 months ago at sticker, dealer originally advertised for $15K over). Buyer didn't even haggle. I should have advertised for more? Regardless, is there a GM product that gives that type of resale? In all seriousness, is there?

My MSRP R comes Tuesday. I'm so stoked. I've gotten 1 night of solid sleep in the last 3 weeks. This needs to end all ready...

[13vertss]

Originally Posted by Kurac

Was waiting till now to post...but just sold my Track Pack private sale for $54K. Bought it for $56,970 (bought 15 months ago at sticker, dealer originally advertised for $15K over). Buyer didn't even haggle. I should have advertised for more? Regardless, is there a GM product that gives that type of resale? In all seriousness, is there?

My MSRP R comes Tuesday. I'm so stoked. I've gotten 1 night of solid sleep in the last 3 weeks. This needs to end all ready...

Don't forget the money you spent on paint protection, I'm sure the new owner appreciated it. 15 months and only 2100 miles. Still new. Camaro guys use there cars.