[travislambert]

Originally Posted by NicD

A stock ZL1 with a TUNE ONLY, not an air filter, not a single other mod besides a tune.


No it's not, it has minor differences and the timing tables are nearly the same which tells me you don't know what you are talking about.


Of course it's different, but since we aren't talking about changing anything mechanically and only doing a tune it is irrelevant.


Because the air box or air filter doesn't matter when you don't change it. This is TUNE ONLY, not tune with a different air box or air filter which will add power and then it is no longer TUNE ONLY.

You're making the argumemt that a tune on a otherwise stock Z06 will yield the same improvement as a tune on an otherwise stock ZL1.... I'm sorry but you're wrong. The airflow characteristics are different, cam phaser is different, etc..

You're talking about a completely different car with a completely different tune with completely different airflow characteristics. This is a Camaro forum and the question is about a ZL1. It's perfectly cool that you have some Z06 experience to share, but acting like my experience is irrelevant because I had a stock replacement air filter is silly when your experience isn't even with the right car.

[NicD]

Originally Posted by travislambert

You're making the argumemt that a tune on a otherwise stock Z06 will yield the same improvement as a tune on an otherwise stock ZL1.... I'm sorry but you're wrong. The airflow characteristics are different, cam phaser is different, etc..

I'm so glad you mentioned the cam phasing, do you want to guess what running the CTS-V/ZL1 cam phaser settings on a Z06 does or visa versa? This is where I set you up for another argument if you take the bait... The motor is the same, the airflow characteristics are the same, the improvement with just a tune is the same as far as peak horsepower goes.

Originally Posted by travislambert

You're talking about a completely different car with a completely different tune with completely different airflow characteristics.

The motor is identical, different platform doesn't matter.

Originally Posted by travislambert

This is a Camaro forum and the question is about a ZL1.

Yes, the same exact LT4 in both.

Originally Posted by travislambert

It's perfectly cool that you have some Z06 experience to share, but acting like my experience is irrelevant because I had a stock replacement air filter is silly when your experience isn't even with the right car.

Your experience is irrelevant because you also changed the air filter which you said made a big difference. I've tuned several ZL1s already, just none that fit the completely stock definition but I've done many TUNE ONLY Z06s that fit the criteria. I do this every day and you are talking about the one experience you had where you changed the air filter, you said and I quote....

Originally Posted by travislambert

the stock air filter on the ZL1 is very restrictive. So much so that there have been cases of the filters collapsing under vacuum. I'm sure the K&N stock replacement filter helped the airflow (and horsepower) quite a bit, but I didn't get a chance to test with the stock filter to see how much of the horsepower gain was attributed directly to the air filter swap.

Just stop.

[travislambert]

NicD,

Sorry if I've upset you. This forum is supposed to be fun for everybody. Let's both try a little harder to keep it that way.

I'm sure you're a great guy and it's always easier to have these discussions in person than it is over a forum. The funny thing is, I think we agree and we're simply getting hung up on semantics.

I believe I totally understand your point that without the air filter change my results would have been different. In other words the air filter makes a difference on what's achievable with a tune, and I absolutely agree with this point.

My point is, given that the air filter does make a difference and the Z06 uses a different air filter (and air box, exhaust, water pump, OS, etc.), the tune-only gains on a Z06 likely will not match the ZL1 tune-only gains.

You're also saying the engines are effectively the same, so therefore the expected gains from a tune-only should be about equal. However, given the previous point, either the air filter, exhaust, etc. make a difference on what's achievable with a tune or they don't. I don't see how one result can be invalid because of an air filter swap, but a result with a different car and air filter, exhaust, etc., provides an accurate expectation of gains.

In a roundabout way though, we've both basically made the same point that outside influences, like air filters, make a difference on what's achievable. Nothing groundbreaking there.

Your experience leads you in one direction because you've commonly seen lower gain numbers. My experience leads me in the other direction because with only a stock replacement air filter and a tune I've seen numbers far exceeding the 35 rwhp mark.

It doesn't seem that either of us know the exact tune-only gains that are achievable on a ZL1. We were both just trying to help out the OP, and it probably just boils down to a subjective opinion on what we each feel is a safe tune.

No big deal. Let's move on.

[Roto-fab 1]

Originally Posted by travislambert

Lean fuel conditions can cause detonation and potentially destroy an engine. By running the engine a little rich it helps guard against poor quality/low-octane gasoline and aftermarket mods such as cold-air-intakes. If GM knew nobody would ever mod there car and nobody would ever use poor quality gas, there wouldn't be a need for them to tune them to run rich.

(Many cold air intakes simply increase the diameter of the air tube going to the engine which throws off MAF reading. In other words, more air enters then engine than what is measured. This causes the engine to run leaner and therefore produce more power (at the increased risk of detonation)... This is where almost all of the power increase comes from... not the increase in airflow. There are a couple exceptions. Quality manufactures of aftermarket intakes, such as Rotofab, will provide a dyno graph which includes air to fuel ratio readings. If the A to F ratios are close to stock and horsepower is improved, this proves their intake actually works and isn't just a MAF hack.)

Well said, thank you for not throwing us in with the rest of the pack!

Michael

[NicD]

Originally Posted by travislambert

Sorry if I've upset you. This forum is supposed to be fun for everybody. Let's both try a little harder to keep it that way.

I don't get upset on the internet, been around way too long for that.

Originally Posted by travislambert

I believe I totally understand your point that without the air filter change my results would have been different. In other words the air filter makes a difference on what's achievable with a tune, and I absolutely agree with this point.

Good, that's my point.

Originally Posted by travislambert

My point is, given that the air filter does make a difference and the Z06 uses a different air filter (and air box, exhaust, water pump, OS, etc.), the tune-only gains on a Z06 likely will not match the ZL1 tune-only gains.

This I don't agree with at all because everything is a constant except the tune. Just because an air box is different between the two cars doesn't mean anything because it's not changing.

Originally Posted by travislambert

You're also saying the engines are effectively the same, so therefore the expected gains from a tune-only should be about equal. However, given the previous point, either the air filter, exhaust, etc. make a difference on what's achievable with a tune or they don't. I don't see how one result can be invalid because of an air filter swap, but a result with a different car and air filter, exhaust, etc., provides an accurate expectation of gains.

Again, the only change is the tune everything else is a constant. If you aren't adding timing to make more power (which you won't be on the LT4 on pump gas) the only thing left is to lean it out to acceptable A/F ratios. You aren't making more power any other way in a tune, period. I'm surprised you didn't want to pursue the cam angle discussion since you brought it up.

Originally Posted by travislambert

Your experience leads you in one direction because you've commonly seen lower gain numbers. My experience leads me in the other direction because with only a stock replacement air filter and a tune I've seen numbers far exceeding the 35 rwhp mark.

LMFAO, you just compared your numbers with an air filter and tune vs tune only and you don't see a problem with this? What is wrong with you?

Originally Posted by travislambert

It doesn't seem that either of us know the exact tune-only gains that are achievable on a ZL1. We were both just trying to help out the OP, and it probably just boils down to a subjective opinion on what we each feel is a safe tune.

Well I actually do know exactly what the gains are with just a TUNE ONLY on the LT4. I do this every day and have been doing it since they came out in 2015. They have been tested AD FINEM. It isn't some special motor or special car that has special properties vs any other one. If you can't add timing to make more power than the only thing left is fueling and getting rid of the overly rich condition at WOT and that is NOT 35 rwhp.

[TJay74]

No two engines/vehicle platforms will respond the same. Case in point, the l86 in the trucks (6.2) is the same engine as the LT1 other than the intake manifold, so instead of 455/460hp we have 420hp. Where the Camaro SS only sees around 10rwhp with the RF CAI the trucks are seeing over 20rwhp gains with a similar CAI kit due to how restrictive the OEM airbox is.

With that, the OEM calibration on the timing side is almost at max performance, there is not much to be gained from tweaking it any. GM has really done their job over the years on getting the timing maps perfected.

All manufactures run rich, as said it is done for safety as they have to buld a car that will drive on -20° to 120° and from below sea level to 6000' above sea level on anything from 87 octane to 93 octane.

If GM knew all owners would do right in their vehicles, the tunes would leave less on the table but they know there are too many owners who don't take care of the vehicles so they have to build a vehicle for the masses.

[NicD]

Originally Posted by TJay74

No two engines/vehicle platforms will respond the same. Case in point, the l86 in the trucks (6.2) is the same engine as the LT1 other than the intake manifold, so instead of 455/460hp we have 420hp. Where the Camaro SS only sees around 10rwhp with the RF CAI the trucks are seeing over 20rwhp gains with a similar CAI kit due to how restrictive the OEM airbox is.

Not really sure how this is relevant, you are talking about two different motors and modifying something mechanically to make more power.

[gilgamesh]

Gents! First let me say, THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR INFORMATION AND DESIRE TO HELP!!! I truly appreciate it all and never wanted to start any kind of a conflict.

Here is a question though-If the LT4 in the ZL1 and the Z06 is identical with identical tuning and such, why is it consistently that Z06s seem to Dyno about 20rwhp more than average Manual ZL1s? Is it an airbox/exhaust question? Or is there something in the engine ECU that is accounting for this?

[NicD]

Originally Posted by gilgamesh

Gents! First let me say, THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR INFORMATION AND DESIRE TO HELP!!! I truly appreciate it all and never wanted to start any kind of a conflict.

Here is a question though-If the LT4 in the ZL1 and the Z06 is identical with identical tuning and such, why is it consistently that Z06s seem to Dyno about 20rwhp more than average Manual ZL1s? Is it an airbox/exhaust question? Or is there something in the engine ECU that is accounting for this?

There is no conflict, just people talking about things that really don't matter when your question was about a tune only.

I have not seen that correlation as I've only seen them dyno right around the same. Now of course this is me using the same dyno under the same conditions and not looking at dyno numbers on the internet which will vary wildly.

[TJay74]

Originally Posted by NicD

Not really sure how this is relevant, you are talking about two different motors and modifying something mechanically to make more power.

Relates to the Z06 versus ZL1, though they are the same engine the airbox system is vastly different which impacts performance. Also I can promise you, the ECM calibration and TCM calibration will be different in many areas even with it being the same engine/transmission/computer between the two cars (other than the Z06 having 1 more gear on the manual).

[Can'tHave2MuchHP]

Originally Posted by gilgamesh

Here is a question though-If the LT4 in the ZL1 and the Z06 is identical with identical tuning and such, why is it consistently that Z06s seem to Dyno about 20rwhp more than average Manual ZL1s? Is it an airbox/exhaust question? Or is there something in the engine ECU that is accounting for this?

Because it's a Corvette. And there's black magic GM has to work to be sure nothing touches their Vette.

[NicD]

Originally Posted by TJay74

Relates to the Z06 versus ZL1, though they are the same engine the airbox system is vastly different which impacts performance. Also I can promise you, the ECM calibration and TCM calibration will be different in many areas even with it being the same engine/transmission/computer between the two cars (other than the Z06 having 1 more gear on the manual).

You can promise me? I can look right at the files themselves and directly compare them not to mention I have had more of them than I can count on the dyno over the years. The air box doesn't matter as the MAF table is calibrated for each vehicle's specific air box and tract and the commanded a/f ratio is exactly the same between the two vehicles. Since nothing mechanically is being changed with a TUNE ONLY it doesn't matter, what is so hard to grasp about this? The couple of degree timing changes in various cells result in timing being pulled no matter what on the stock tune with pump gas so throw that out the window, it's irrelevant. Of course the TCM calibration is completely different, want to guess why and why it doesn't matter either?

[N2ned]

Originally Posted by gilgamesh

SO, I am reading about a cat on a FB group that, supposidly, did a tune on his '17 ZL1 WITH NO OTHER MODS and picked up around 35rwhp and 40rwtq. Basically reporting that from the factory the car is very rich and lacking on any timing.

Anyone else had an experience with doing JUST a tune and what were your results?

that was me tune only it runs a lot better than stock

[IneedAZ]

Originally Posted by N2ned

that was me tune only it runs a lot better than stock

Gonna take it to the track? Drag strip?