[Daves1SS]

Update:

I got the HP Tuners logs from my buddy and forwarded them to Edelbrock’s tech support team. My friend with HP Tuners did not monitor cat over temp protection or cat temperature. But he did monitor good information. Even though I got to the dyno 3 ½ hours early and let the car sit in the 83 degree low humidity outdoor weather with a nice breeze, they are saying that will not necessarily lower IAT’s. They say to turn the ignition on (but motor off) so the IC pump will run, and put a fan in front of the radiator for a while to cool the IAT’s down. That, I didn’t do because I incorrectly assumed that letting the car sit for 3 ½ hours would do it. Catalytic over temp protection most likely was active during the dyno pulls, and IAT’s were 145 deg+ on the runs.

I also thought this kit with the pulley that comes on it was meant to put out 6 psi boost. I must have read that wrong somewhere. They told me their kit is designed to put out 8-9 psi and boost creeps to 10 like I saw at redline were not out of the norm. So long story short? Only dyno the car after you’ve monitored the IAT’s and brought them down to about 100 degrees F before your first run. They said to try and not let them exceed 120 F on your last run. So obviously, dyno in the winter if at all possible. I learned a lot from them over the last few days with these discussions that’s for sure. I never had to battle IAT’s with my last PD SC’d car, but that was highly modified 2001 Grand Prix GTP and we put the IAT sensor in the fenderwell, lol. With this Edelbrock kit, the IAT sensor is purposely put in the hottest location possible so it will always be a battle for us running this kit to keep them under control. It definitely sucks for me, living in the south with our 100 degree summers and this being my DD car that sees plenty of traffic jams.

I will dyno the car again in another month or so when it has gotten cold out, and I will monitor and make sure the IAT’s are at least no more than 100 degrees on the first pull. We will see what my results are like then.

[hammdo]

I don't have an E-force, but, have done some experiments on controlling IAT temps for my LSA conversion in my Gen5.

Here is a link:

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...385577&page=55

NCM run:

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=777

I've been testing these in 95° to 100° temps. I even took mine to NCM and ran 5 laps around the 3.2 mile course -- with my 5 Lap temps @ the end (this included a 20 minute drive up and a 40 minute wait while the supercharge heat soaked!).

Getting them to work on a dyno is not the same as 'keeping' the temps within the power range while driving.

I have increased the volume of coolant (new HX and Reservoir), modified the coolant/distilled water mix, as well as running dual varimax pumps. These set of tests also look and Thermal Efficiency of the super charger (with a way to calculate 'any' superchargers TE). You'll get and idea of how much heat is generated per lb of boost and how well things cool or return. I also do a heat soak test to see how fast the system gets the IAT temps down (IAT2 for mine since I'm reading the ZL1 sensor in the lid).

-Don

[Daves1SS]

Originally Posted by hammdo

I don't have an E-force, but, have done some experiments on controlling IAT temps for my LSA conversion in my Gen5.

Here is a link:

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...385577&page=55

NCM run:

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=777

I've been testing these in 95° to 100° temps. I even took mine to NCM and ran 5 laps around the 3.2 mile course -- with my 5 Lap temps @ the end (this included a 20 minute drive up and a 40 minute wait while the supercharge heat soaked!).

Getting them to work on a dyno is not the same as 'keeping' the temps within the power range while driving.

I have increased the volume of coolant (new HX and Reservoir), modified the coolant/distilled water mix, as well as running dual varimax pumps. These set of tests also look and Thermal Efficiency of the super charger (with a way to calculate 'any' superchargers TE). You'll get and idea of how much heat is generated per lb of boost and how well things cool or return. I also do a heat soak test to see how fast the system gets the IAT temps down (IAT2 for mine since I'm reading the ZL1 sensor in the lid).

-Don

Good information Don, thank you. I will read your posts.
So I hooked up my SCT X4 to the car for the drive into work this morning.
The car had sat overnight in my garage. Upon first startup (it was about 70 in my garage), the IAT's were 91. I gently drove to work, with very little traffic, and after 15 minutes of steady cruising on the interstate, I averaged 40-45 degrees over ambient. It was 58 degrees out and the IAT's were 101-104 until I got off the interstate and got into some traffic. At that point, they went up to as much as 120.

I don't think I expected them to be THAT much over ambient.

[JANNETTYRACING]

Originally Posted by Daves1SS

Good information Don, thank you. I will read your posts.
So I hooked up my SCT X4 to the car for the drive into work this morning.
The car had sat overnight in my garage. Upon first startup (it was about 70 in my garage), the IAT's were 91. I gently drove to work, with very little traffic, and after 15 minutes of steady cruising on the interstate, I averaged 40-45 degrees over ambient. It was 58 degrees out and the IAT's were 101-104 until I got off the interstate and got into some traffic. At that point, they went up to as much as 120.

I don't think I expected them to be THAT much over ambient.

I offer Remote custom tuning via the SCT X4 tuner you already own if you can not get any satisfaction from Edelbrock.

Looking at your charts they are commanding way to rich a mixture, they are following the standards set by Port injection engines.

I have a supercharger on my 16 LT-1 Auto We also did a 16 LT-1 M6 car with Headers and have spent a lot of time on the dyno with it to fine tune the combos, they are happiest around 11.7 AFR

I don't see these ever getting to the advertised numbers unless your on a Happy Dyno that inflates the numbers.

Mine with stock manifolds and exhaust is making 535 RWHP on 93 octane.

An LT-1 M6 with Headers 565 RWHP on 93 octane.

Ted.

[Atomic Ed]

Originally Posted by Daves1SS

Good information Don, thank you. I will read your posts.
So I hooked up my SCT X4 to the car for the drive into work this morning.
The car had sat overnight in my garage. Upon first startup (it was about 70 in my garage), the IAT's were 91. I gently drove to work, with very little traffic, and after 15 minutes of steady cruising on the interstate, I averaged 40-45 degrees over ambient. It was 58 degrees out and the IAT's were 101-104 until I got off the interstate and got into some traffic. At that point, they went up to as much as 120.

I don't think I expected them to be THAT much over ambient.

I'm seeing the same thing on mine, roughly 40-50 degrees above ambient just normal driving. 110-120* F is the norm IAT in 75* ambient temps. I will also say that I've had IATs up to 185* and have yet to set a code. I'm not really convinced it's a catalytic over temp protection.

I don't think we're going to get any more out of Edelbrock at this point, so it's up to us to figure out how to bring the IATs down. Kinda hard to get the IATs to 100* f for a dyno run when they at 120* normally.

I just read Don's post and had to laugh in that I was talking to another E-Force owner two days ago about doing the double pump setup. We talked about several ideas, including a second, long, thin HX in front of the upper grill, thermal gaskets, a reservoir and possibly spacers between the SC unit and the manifold adapters. One idea that really interests me is a refrigerant chiller tied into the A/C unit. Just waiting for the guy in Florida to put one out.

I'm still baffled Dave on why your AFRs are so out of whack. Some isn't right on your setup or the dyno guy gave you bad data. Try using your SCT and check the equivalence ratio (Lamda) and the command equivalence. That will get you your real time AFRs. May not even need a separate AFR monitor.

[Daves1SS]

Originally Posted by JANNETTYRACING

I offer Remote custom tuning via the SCT X4 tuner you already own if you can not get any satisfaction from Edelbrock.

Looking at your charts they are commanding way to rich a mixture, they are following the standards set by Port injection engines.

I have a supercharger on my 16 LT-1 Auto We also did a 16 LT-1 M6 car with Headers and have spent a lot of time on the dyno with it to fine tune the combos, they are happiest around 11.7 AFR

I don't see these ever getting to the advertised numbers unless your on a Happy Dyno that inflates the numbers.

Mine with stock manifolds and exhaust is making 535 RWHP on 93 octane.

An LT-1 M6 with Headers 565 RWHP on 93 octane.

Ted.

Thanks Ted. I thought about sending you a PM asking about you remote tuning since you're so far away from me. I will keep this in the back of my mind, but it will be a last resort only because doing so will mean I'll no longer have the Edelbrock powertrain warranty which does at least give me SOME peace of mind. I'm going to dyno again when it's cold out and I'm going to spend some time prior to the first pull with a leaf blower on the motor and the ignition on, and monitor IAT's and try and have them around 100-110 for the first pull.

I especially want to see if the AFR's are still showing mid 10's or if that really was catalyst over temp protection. Others that have dyno'd with the Edelbrock kit are getting mid 12's at the tail pipe, which really leads me to think the catalyst over temp protection was active on my car. Another dyno session starting with much lower IAT's should tell us for sure though. RDP Store just posted a video with the Edelbrock kit on a 2017 Camaro SS, with Edelbrock's 93 octane tune and no other mods pulling 555 whp. I have asked for more details like AFR and IAT readings during the pulls.

[Daves1SS]

Originally Posted by Atomic Ed

I'm seeing the same thing on mine, roughly 40-50 degrees above ambient just normal driving. 110-120* F is the norm IAT in 75* ambient temps. I will also say that I've had IATs up to 185* and have yet to set a code. I'm not really convinced it's a catalytic over temp protection.

I don't think we're going to get any more out of Edelbrock at this point, so it's up to us to figure out how to bring the IATs down. Kinda hard to get the IATs to 100* f for a dyno run when they at 120* normally.

I just read Don's post and had to laugh in that I was talking to another E-Force owner two days ago about doing the double pump setup. We talked about several ideas, including a second, long, thin HX in front of the upper grill, thermal gaskets, a reservoir and possibly spacers between the SC unit and the manifold adapters. One idea that really interests me is a refrigerant chiller tied into the A/C unit. Just waiting for the guy in Florida to put one out.

I'm still baffled Dave on why your AFRs are so out of whack. Some isn't right on your setup or the dyno guy gave you bad data. Try using your SCT and check the equivalence ratio (Lamda) and the command equivalence. That will get you your real time AFRs. May not even need a separate AFR monitor.

I sent Edelbrock an e-mail this morning suggesting they offer some supplemental products that we could purchase to help lower our IAT's, and mentioned how the Heartbeat kit yields 25-30 degree lower IAT's as a comparison. It probably won't do any good, but I did mention it, lol.

I won't be too worried about this now that we're coming upon cooler temps, but come next spring and summer I am going to really want to look at some options like you discussed Ed. On my AFR's, read what I said to Ted above.
I'll take my SCT X4 out to the car at lunch and see if I can find the info you're talking about on the scanner.

[JANNETTYRACING]

Originally Posted by Daves1SS

Thanks Ted. I thought about sending you a PM asking about you remote tuning since you're so far away from me. I will keep this in the back of my mind, but it will be a last resort only because doing so will mean I'll no longer have the Edelbrock powertrain warranty which does at least give me SOME peace of mind. I'm going to dyno again when it's cold out and I'm going to spend some time prior to the first pull with a leaf blower on the motor and the ignition on, and monitor IAT's and try and have them around 100-110 for the first pull.

I especially want to see if the AFR's are still showing mid 10's or if that really was catalyst over temp protection. Others that have dyno'd with the Edelbrock kit are getting mid 12's at the tail pipe, which really leads me to think the catalyst over temp protection was active on my car. Another dyno session starting with much lower IAT's should tell us for sure though. RDP Store just posted a video with the Edelbrock kit on a 2017 Camaro SS, with Edelbrock's 93 octane tune and no other mods pulling 555 whp. I have asked for more details like AFR and IAT readings during the pulls.

Always Happy to help.

In bold, Don't you feel you would be cheating yourself out of true repeatable numbers that actually happen on the street?

Typically you just need to drive the car on the dyno for a couple minutes before a run, Remember Heat soak only happens with the engine off.

I would suggest an O2 bung be put in the exhaust before the cats for real true AFR readings.

Again Happy dynos read about 10% high.

I am fortunate to have the best dyno available that is 100% accurate, Superflow.

I have thrashed on mine for days on the dyno you're only going to get so much RWHP much per LB of boost.

I just installed a JMS Fuel pump Voltage booster and smaller pulley will be back on the dyno soon.

Ted.

[Atomic Ed]

Just looked at my IATs this morning. Ambient was 35* and by the time I got to work (15 min), the IATs were at 85*. Just too high. Looks like I need to send Edelbrock a note also, letting them know you are not the only one with IAT issues.

Gotta agree with Ted above. The winter time is when I can tear into the car and get it ready for the summer. While I think Ted can provide a great tune, getting the mechanics of the intercooler system working properly first is where to start.

[Daves1SS]

Originally Posted by JANNETTYRACING

Always Happy to help.

In bold, Don't you feel you would be cheating yourself out of true repeatable numbers that actually happen on the street?

Typically you just need to drive the car on the dyno for a couple minutes before a run, Remember Heat soak only happens with the engine off.

I would suggest an O2 bung be put in the exhaust before the cats for real true AFR readings.

Again Happy dynos read about 10% high.

I am fortunate to have the best dyno available that is 100% accurate, Superflow.

I have thrashed on mine for days on the dyno you're only going to get so much RWHP much per LB of boost.

I just installed a JMS Fuel pump Voltage booster and smaller pulley will be back on the dyno soon.

Ted.

Ted,

In regards to the bolt text, YES absolutely I’d be cheating myself out of repeatable numbers on the street. But what my goal is in doing another dyno test is the intent purpose of starting with low IAT’s and making sure I drive the car easy to the dyno, is to ensure that cat overtemp protection is not active, so see what AFR numbers are reported at the tail. Yes, I know the dyno numbers will be higher, but I especially want to see if the AFR’s are in the mid 12’s at the tail, or still in the 10’s. If in the 10’s still, we have a tune problem without a doubt and I need to start looking at having you tune my car if Edelbrock says they won’t change the tune and lean it out.

On the way to the dyno last weekend, I tango’d with a new Corvette multiple times on the interstate shortly before getting off the interstate and shutting the car off at the dyno place for 3 ½ hours, allowing the heat soak. So it makes sense to me (and to Edelbrock as well based off our e-mails) that the cat overtemp protection could have very well been active causing the AFR’s to go pig rich.

In retrospect, I kinda wish I had gone with the Heartbeat kit, if nothing else because the battle to control IAT’s isn’t quite as critical to proper performance since theirs is in a better location and reports 25-30 degrees lower.
This is all stuff I learned after my purchase, unfortunately. I’ll be sure to update everyone on my next dyno results findings, once it cools off some more here. Then I’ll know how to proceed. In the meantime, I am going to try and get a WB sensor & put it just north of the cats. Any suggestions on brand, and also gauge housing for our cars would be greatly appreciated.

[Daves1SS]

Originally Posted by Atomic Ed

Just looked at my IATs this morning. Ambient was 35* and by the time I got to work (15 min), the IATs were at 85*. Just too high. Looks like I need to send Edelbrock a note also, letting them know you are not the only one with IAT issues.

Gotta agree with Ted above. The winter time is when I can tear into the car and get it ready for the summer. While I think Ted can provide a great tune, getting the mechanics of the intercooler system working properly first is where to start.

Agreed!!

[Atomic Ed]

I understand your thinking on the E-Force vs. the Maggie, but we'll get these issues resolved in time.

BTW, your not going to read the equivalence ratio (Lamda) and the command equivalence with just the basic scanner unless you upload the scanner with the items you want to look at. You'll need your laptop with the Live-Link on it and run it through the scanner. I've set up a scanner file that I've uploaded for IATs, equivalence, boost (cant remember the exact name, but I think it's absolute pressure) rpm and a couple of others. Normally I just use it with the laptop.

Once you're set up, your equivalence (Lamda) reading should be around .8 at WOT, which is an AFR of around 11.75, or about 12.5 with a tailpipe sensor (post cat). If your AFRs are really 10.5ish, your equivalence will be around .7.

[JANNETTYRACING]

Originally Posted by Daves1SS

Ted,

In regards to the bolt text, YES absolutely I’d be cheating myself out of repeatable numbers on the street. But what my goal is in doing another dyno test is the intent purpose of starting with low IAT’s and making sure I drive the car easy to the dyno, is to ensure that cat overtemp protection is not active, so see what AFR numbers are reported at the tail. Yes, I know the dyno numbers will be higher, but I especially want to see if the AFR’s are in the mid 12’s at the tail, or still in the 10’s. If in the 10’s still, we have a tune problem without a doubt and I need to start looking at having you tune my car if Edelbrock says they won’t change the tune and lean it out.

On the way to the dyno last weekend, I tango’d with a new Corvette multiple times on the interstate shortly before getting off the interstate and shutting the car off at the dyno place for 3 ½ hours, allowing the heat soak. So it makes sense to me (and to Edelbrock as well based off our e-mails) that the cat overtemp protection could have very well been active causing the AFR’s to go pig rich.

In retrospect, I kinda wish I had gone with the Heartbeat kit, if nothing else because the battle to control IAT’s isn’t quite as critical to proper performance since theirs is in a better location and reports 25-30 degrees lower.
This is all stuff I learned after my purchase, unfortunately. I’ll be sure to update everyone on my next dyno results findings, once it cools off some more here. Then I’ll know how to proceed. In the meantime, I am going to try and get a WB sensor & put it just north of the cats. Any suggestions on brand, and also gauge housing for our cars would be greatly appreciated.

I often question the calibration of the Provided IAT sensors that come in the superchargers.

In my experience the Heartbeat IAT runs very cool due to the size, shape, placement and efficiency.

All of the Eforce cars I have done over the years have all had higher IAT readings.

I really don't believe that placement has anything to do with it, once the air passes through the intercooler core the temp should be the Temp.

Ted.

[toohighpsi]

Dave, the first thing I would start with is that boost level, 8-9psi is too high for an LT1 pump gas application, what size pulley is on it and can you get a larger one? Ted is absolutely correct about the A/F ratio, it really needs to be in the 11.7-12.0 range on pump gas, and finally timing, anything lower than about 17 degrees is counter productive. A boost level of 6-7psi is not necessary chosen because it is "safe", its because it makes the most power on pump. It's always a compromise between compression ratio, boost, AFR, and timing, dropping the boost level will reduce the IATs and SC power consumption allowing the engine to move into a more efficient (and more powerful) operating range.