[MrIcky]

Well first of all, how is this a surprise? I do remember people arguing about how it was just a loan though. The only companies who have made an effort to pay the money back are those that want to get the government out of their pay structure.

Originally Posted by Xanthos

Taxpayers will suffer heavy losses?

I hate to break it to all of you, but we suffer 100% losses on our taxes. That money is no longer ours - it belongs solely to the government to be used at their discretion. The only control we have over the use of that money is the threat of lost votes if they use it in a way we don't like.

Why do you think pork barrel spending exists? Because taxpayers like having their money spent on random things? No - because they have no control over how its spent.

So really this story should be titled "Government sufferes heavy loss" not "Taxpayers suffer heavy loss."
- X

Although it may 'feel' this way, this is only accurate if the Government is operating in the black or at least close too it. When the Government is this far in debt at some point, the Government will no longer be able to finance programs through debt. At that time, the Gov't likely will have to start Monetizing debt even though that's horrid practice. It almost always means inflation. Plus the Government has to pay more interest on bonds and loans- so they have to raise more revenue quickly thru taxes.

Cash is bought and sold as a commodity, it's all interrelated. The Government can't suffer a heavy loss without the citizens suffering one too, even if the loss to the citizens isn't concurrent with the loss to Government. If it were ONLY the loss of the loan to GM, it would be a drop in the bucket. Right now it's a ladle in a sieve though.

[PQ]

Originally Posted by Xanthos

I'm not being complacent. I'm merely stating fact.

We have no physical control over how congress uses tax money. Other than to vote for different people next election.

Ranting and raging about how congress is spending "my money" - which, as I stated earlier, is no longer my money - does NOTHING.

Let me repeat - NOTHING.

Its the same concept as your employer thinking they have some say over how you spend your paycheck. After all - the money came from them, right?

This whole concept is ridiculous.
- X

P.S. - I see you trimmed your name down too.

It creates awareness. When we become silent, our children grow up silent. Even people who don't vote can create awareness. We are becoming silent. My employer (me) can't tell me how to spend my money, but he can dictate how much to give me. OR, he can fire me. And I can quit and find a new employer. We are stuck with our Gov. It's out of control. (all parties) So in essence, we're screwed.

And yes, I shortened my name. I've allways been known as PQ and that's what all my freinds call me.

[Xanthos]

Originally Posted by MrIcky

Well first of all, how is this a surprise? I do remember people arguing about how it was just a loan though. The only companies who have made an effort to pay the money back are those that want to get the government out of their pay structure.

Although it may 'feel' this way, this is only accurate if the Government is operating in the black or at least close too it. When the Government is this far in debt at some point, the Government will no longer be able to finance programs through debt. At that time, the Gov't likely will have to start Monetizing debt even though that's horrid practice. It almost always means inflation. Plus the Government has to pay more interest on bonds and loans- so they have to raise more revenue quickly thru taxes.

Cash is bought and sold as a commodity, it's all interrelated. The Government can't suffer a heavy loss without the citizens suffering one too, even if the loss to the citizens isn't concurrent with the loss to Government. If it were ONLY the loss of the loan to GM, it would be a drop in the bucket. Right now it's a ladle in a sieve though.

I understand that the consequences of poor government spending will be reflected in the value of the dollar and the state of our economy - however, that doesn't change the fact that it isn't our money and that (at least in our current system of government) we have NO say over how it is used, except in terms of who we vote for.

That is why America is a REPUBLIC, not a DEMOCRACY. In a democracy, the people vote on issues. Every issue. But, that system is too inefficient for a large nation - or even really anything larger than a town/city government. So, we have a republic instead, where we elect leaders to then represent our interests by voting in ways we approve. However, the only recourse we have for those leaders not voting in ways we approve (such as by spending massive amounts of money and getting the nation into massive amounts of debt) is to vote for different people the next time.

And, I also claim no responsibility for the actions of congress because none of the people I voted for made it into office.
- X

P.S. - And that holds true for the most recent congressional election AND the one before that. None of my candidates won either election.

[fdjizm]

Originally Posted by Xanthos

I understand that the consequences of poor government spending will be reflected in the value of the dollar and the state of our economy - however, that doesn't change the fact that it isn't our money and that (at least in our current system of government) we have NO say over how it is used, except in terms of who we vote for.

That is why America is a REPUBLIC, not a DEMOCRACY. In a democracy, the people vote on issues. Every issue. But, that system is too inefficient for a large nation - or even really anything larger than a town/city government. So, we have a republic instead, where we elect leaders to then represent our interests by voting in ways we approve. However, the only recourse we have for those leaders not voting in ways we approve (such as by spending massive amounts of money and getting the nation into massive amounts of debt) is to vote for different people the next time.

And, I also claim no responsibility for the actions of congress because none of the people I voted for made it into office.
- X

P.S. - And that holds true for the most recent congressional election AND the one before that. None of my candidates won either election.

so you are basically saying tax payers should keep their mouths shut and turn the other cheek? as in we should not be complaining? as in accept what ever is thrown at us? as in communism?

[PQ]

Originally Posted by ssump29

No its not. If you had the choice to not pay taxes you would not pay the government anything. The government is a business alright. What the end result if you don't pay taxes? They put a levy on your wages and take your money. And if you evade them they will come to arrest you, so you see you don't pay taxes because you want to so why do you think you would have a say how they spend money they take from you in the first place without your consent. Simple answer is you have no say.

This country is backwards, people like to talk about founding fathers and reasons this country was formed, yet they forget the all important one is the reason we broke away was because of taxes and freedom of religion. Now look at this country almost 300 years later, taxes out the ass and freedom of religion choice all but silenced and taken away.

Government business is to make money off of our backs, thats what business the government is in legal pimping

That's fine, but NOT the way it was designed. I don't have to like it. It's just kinda weird to hear it said as if it were supposed to be that way.

[Xanthos]

Originally Posted by fdjizm

so you are basically saying tax payers should keep their mouths shut and turn the other cheek? as in we should not be complaining? as in accept what ever is thrown at us? as in communism?

No - I'm saying STOP VOTING FOR THE IMBECILES WHO KEEP GETTING PUT IN OFFICE.

The average member of congress has been in office for 14 years.

WHY?

If things are continuing to get worse - if debt is continuing to deepen - WHY DO PEOPLE KEEP VOTING FOR THESE PEOPLE?

"Raising awareness" does nothing when we - as a nation - continue to elect the same people over and over. How is that change?
- X

[PQ]

Originally Posted by Xanthos

No - I'm saying STOP VOTING FOR THE IMBECILES WHO KEEP GETTING PUT IN OFFICE.

The average member of congress has been in office for 14 years.

WHY?

If things are continuing to get worse - if debt is continuing to deepen - WHY DO PEOPLE KEEP VOTING FOR THESE PEOPLE?

"Raising awareness" does nothing when we - as a nation - continue to elect the same people over and over. How is that change?
- X

Problem there is the system swallows up any good men that get voted in. (if there are any more) Most don't have the resources to get in or get someone in. And once they get in, they are 'asimilated' into the 'collective'. We need a super conservative (or a super liberal) to take office. Someone who isn't afraid to yell and scream and make the tough decisions. Like Mitt Romney. Or _____________ (enter the other guy) for the other side.

[ssump29]

Originally Posted by PQ

That's fine, but NOT the way it was designed. I don't have to like it. It's just kinda weird to hear it said as if it were supposed to be that way.

I gotta cha but the truth of the matter is that it doesn't matter how it was designed when thats the way it is. A design is just that a design, doesn't mean the final result is going to reflect what the design was.

We have no say and it doesn't matter whom we elect because in the end the people you elect are only worried about themselves and will not go against their own political party to please the people whom elected them in the first place. They only care about keeping their career alive and unfortunately that means gaining their peers respect which is other policitians. They work for each other not us, which is what was designed but alas the design is flawed.

[Supermans]

Originally Posted by fdjizm

so you are basically saying tax payers should keep their mouths shut and turn the other cheek? as in we should not be complaining? as in accept what ever is thrown at us? as in communism?

People that say "complaining does nothing" haven't got a clue how America works. The left did not stay silent and wanted "anybody but Bush" and got their wish. The right is not staying silent anymore, as can be seen in all those tee parties that don't want Universal Government run healthcare. Whatever side you are on, keeping silent only allows for your own voice not being heard, thus you make no difference in the way our elected officials handle certain situations. Yes, you can stay silent and then go out and vote; however while those public officials are in power, who tells them whether they are doing things the right or the wrong way. You just don't want to put blind trust and faith in any human being.. That type of blind faith is only deserved to be aimed at God..

[Paperer]

I agree. Since when did "the people" get their tax money back?

[MrIcky]

It's interesting to me that right now, for the first time that I can remember people who aren't part of some sort of PAC are standing up and saying 'no more'. I won't say what it's about because it will a) change topics and b) shut it down, but it's really set the politicians back on their heels. I don't think politicians expected Grandma and Grandpa unafilliated with the AARP or other organization to stand up and take them to task and refuse to leave without an answer. I don't think I'd previously heard the question "did you read the bill?" and then had the joy of watching a congressman stammer "no" and make some lame excuse.

My point is that you do have more power than you realize, especially if you are in a contested area.

[fdjizm]

Originally Posted by Paperer

I agree. Since when did "the people" get their tax money back?

in the form of more money for schools, books, fixing local roadways etc... nah mean? so we give an auto company a few billion to wipe their buns with and we have less for things that could have done us some good rather than a company that can't "get it right" and does absolutely nothing with the cash but lose more. how do them apples taste?

[Supermans]

Originally Posted by MrIcky

It's interesting to me that right now, for the first time that I can remember people who aren't part of some sort of PAC are standing up and saying 'no more'. I won't say what it's about because it will a) change topics and b) shut it down, but it's really set the politicians back on their heels. I don't think politicians expected Grandma and Grandpa unafilliated with the AARP or other organization to stand up and take them to task and refuse to leave without an answer. I don't think I'd previously heard the question "did you read the bill?" and then had the joy of watching a congressman stammer "no" and make some lame excuse.

My point is that you do have more power than you realize, especially if you are in a contested area.

well put.

[Supermans]

Originally Posted by fdjizm

in the form of more money for schools, books, fixing local roadways etc... nah mean? so we give an auto company a few billion to wipe their buns with and we have less for things that could have done us some good rather than a company that can't "get it right" and does absolutely nothing with the cash but lose more. how do them apples taste?

One thing is for certain, the tons of money that does go into our school system is being spent on everything but the classroom. Raise teachers salaries for crying out loud... BY the time the money gets to the classroom, 90% of it is gone to the administrators with super inflated salaries and union's. All this money that is appropriated yet not used in the first stimulus package should be appropriated to raise teacher salaries which in turn would raise the quality of teachers going into the field and thus we get smarter students "taxpayers" down the road..

I just want to see the money I send to the Government spent the right way.. I do hope GM does make a profit large enough to pay back the billions and get in the green. However I'm not holding my breath that it will happen anytime soon.