[kcpoloman]

I dont mind being the only one around with a Camaro in an endless sea of V6 Mustangs.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BradfordCamaro

December and January not usually big on sales for a 455HP monster

This ^ The majority of the country is enjoying that lovely time of year winter. Not a lot of people rushing out the door to buy performance cars, sporty cars, rear wheel drive cars.

Originally Posted by ChefBorOzzy

Too early to tell, but no, they're not absolutely flying off the lots where I'm at.. But they are moving.

Likewise. Last month my local dealer had 20 something 16's in stock. Just checked they have 27 on the lot.

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

You do realize that those "useless non car people" make up probably an easy 75-85% of the Camaro sales, right? Enthusiasts make up a very small portion of overall sales.

If sales of the Camaro were limited to just "car people"/ "Camaro enthusiasts"/"car guys"...the Camaro would be dead by the 2018 MY due to lack of sales volume. Being on these forums skews the perception of the Camaros target audience and sales success since everyone here is a "car person" and is either a Camaro enthusiast, a car enthusiast or is at least interested in a Camaro. People here can spot the exact differences between Cyber Gray Metallic, Ashen Gray Metallic and Nightfall Gray Metallic and how the 2010, 2011 and 2012 interiors are all different.

To the average person, who is who the Camaro must be a success and capture their attention, all they see is the bowtie and the "Camaro" name badge...that's it really..and to them the 5th and 6th Gens really don't look that different.

people on forums always forget that. The car needs to attract average buyers as well, bc they make up the majority of the sales

[bballr4567]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Likewise. Last month my local dealer had 20 something 16's in stock. Just checked they have 27 on the lot.

And? My local dealer had 3. How many are on a local lot shows zilch about the National inventories.

You can't judge national sales based on a microsubset of one dealer.

Care to list your dealer? I'd love to see what product mix they have on the ground.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by bballr4567

And? My local dealer had 3. How many are on a local lot shows zilch about the National inventories.

You can't judge national sales based on a microsubset of one dealer.

Care to list your dealer? I'd love to see what product mix they have on the ground.

Sure

http://www.castlechevycars.com/new-v...s&page=1&years[]=2016&make[]=Chevrolet&models[]=Camaro&show_all_filters=false&_post_id=4

[doc212121]

Originally Posted by mkorgan

A little harsh? Overly sensitive? Simple fact, if GM sold Camaro's to only "car guys" then they would not make a Camaro because there is not enough of us to justify the manufacturing sinvestment. See the death of the Gen4. The car was not appealing enough to the general public even though they sold very well to the Camaro faithful.

20% of folks will buy a Camaro because they are Camaro guys. 20% will buy a Ford because they are Ford guys. The 60% in the middle want a nice looking sports coupe they can afford and works with their lifestyle. Make no mistake, GM is extremely concerned about the "non car guys" opinion as it make up most of the market and will only grow as less and less people maintain their own cars or don't use them for anything other than general transportation.

I like the 6GEN and as a "car guy", I can appreciate the advancements in the car over the 5GEN. HOWEVER, my daughter and son who just graduated college bought new cars at the end of last year and both got GEN5s because it was cheaper and unless they were sitting next to each other, could not tell the difference between the two generation of cars. Believe it or not, that is 60% of your market. and the target demo for the Camaro. How else can you explain a V6 or T4 in the Camaro? Must be a lot of "non car guys" in the demographic they are targeting. Ford did the same thing by putting the ECO Boost in the Mustang.

If I can go into a dealer as a "non car guy" and get a hell of a deal on a Gen5 versus paying MSRP on a Gen6....that's what I am going to do. This will all fix itself when all the Gen5s are gone and the only thing left on the lot moving forward is Gen6's. The Gen5's did not have an outgoing model to contend with at launch.

No one is saying that GM did not make a great car. It is just not different enough for the "non car guy" buyer to pay that much more for when Gen5s are still readily available.

And I agree, comparing launch number Gen5 versus Gen6 is not fair to the Gen6 do to the vacuum the Gen5 filled when it came back into the market.

No clue where to start here so I wont, throwing numbers out based on guessing, and your the assessment of a market with no intimate knowledge or documentation of it, Im not sure where you even pulled them from.....
I've been in the industry for 20+ years, my experience tells me more than post count. Ive owned Camaro's since the late 90's, and have personal relationships with several of the members responsible for it over the years, that's where I will leave it since nowadays everyone is an expert and Im not interested in being accused of it because of a difference of opinion.

Keep rolling on..........

[mkorgan]

Originally Posted by doc212121

No clue where to start here so I wont, throwing numbers out based on guessing, and your the assessment of a market with no intimate knowledge or documentation of it, Im not sure where you even pulled them from.....
I've been in the industry for 20+ years, my experience tells me more than post count. Ive owned Camaro's since the late 90's, and have personal relationships with several of the members responsible for it over the years, that's where I will leave it since nowadays everyone is an expert and Im not interested in being accused of it because of a difference of opinion.

Keep rolling on..........

Well, I can tell you I am probably old enough to be your father, have been in the industry since the early 70's. Spent 15 years as a marketing director for a company that does marketing analysis for the automotive industry until I started my own company in the 90's that I sold 5 years ago when I retired just after the 5GEN hit the market. Unless the industry has completely turned upside down, the metrics I have provided are extremely conservative and basically common Bell Curve analytics which when summarized for this industry provide the foundation of the percentages.

I am not here to argue, I just like to remind folks the large company like GM are not driven by engineering or product teams. They are driven by marketing teams that determine what will generate the most money for the company. Once marketing has established a direction, then the product teams work with engineering to drive the baseline product. Only after the baseline product with the widest appeal has been delivered and is on the street will the halo cars come to drive attention to the brand. That last category is where we, the car guy, finally get what we want. Have a great day and enjoy your car.

[Techn9cian805]

Originally Posted by mkorgan

A little harsh? Overly sensitive? Simple fact, if GM sold Camaro's to only "car guys" then they would not make a Camaro because there is not enough of us to justify the manufacturing sinvestment. See the death of the Gen4. The car was not appealing enough to the general public even though they sold very well to the Camaro faithful.

20% of folks will buy a Camaro because they are Camaro guys. 20% will buy a Ford because they are Ford guys. The 60% in the middle want a nice looking sports coupe they can afford and works with their lifestyle. Make no mistake, GM is extremely concerned about the "non car guys" opinion as it make up most of the market and will only grow as less and less people maintain their own cars or don't use them for anything other than general transportation.

I like the 6GEN and as a "car guy", I can appreciate the advancements in the car over the 5GEN. HOWEVER, my daughter and son who just graduated college bought new cars at the end of last year and both got GEN5s because it was cheaper and unless they were sitting next to each other, could not tell the difference between the two generation of cars. Believe it or not, that is 60% of your market. and the target demo for the Camaro. How else can you explain a V6 or T4 in the Camaro? Must be a lot of "non car guys" in the demographic they are targeting. Ford did the same thing by putting the ECO Boost in the Mustang.

If I can go into a dealer as a "non car guy" and get a hell of a deal on a Gen5 versus paying MSRP on a Gen6....that's what I am going to do. This will all fix itself when all the Gen5s are gone and the only thing left on the lot moving forward is Gen6's. The Gen5's did not have an outgoing model to contend with at launch.

No one is saying that GM did not make a great car. It is just not different enough for the "non car guy" buyer to pay that much more for when Gen5s are still readily available.

And I agree, comparing launch number Gen5 versus Gen6 is not fair to the Gen6 do to the vacuum the Gen5 filled when it came back into the market.

+1000

[doc212121]

Originally Posted by mkorgan

Well, I can tell you I am probably old enough to be your father, have been in the industry since the early 70's. Spent 15 years as a marketing director for a company that does marketing analysis for the automotive industry until I started my own company in the 90's that I sold 5 years ago when I retired just after the 5GEN hit the market. Unless the industry has completely turned upside down, the metrics I have provided are extremely conservative and basically common Bell Curve analytics which when summarized for this industry provide the foundation of the percentages.

I am not here to argue, I just like to remind folks the large company like GM are not driven by engineering or product teams. They are driven by marketing teams that determine what will generate the most money for the company. Once marketing has established a direction, then the product teams work with engineering to drive the baseline product. Only after the baseline product with the widest appeal has been delivered and is on the street will the halo cars come to drive attention to the brand. That last category is where we, the car guy, finally get what we want. Have a great day and enjoy your car.

Thanks Pops!
If you see my other posts I have stated the exact same thing you did here. The statistics of what you were claiming in your prior post was what I was stating cannot be validated(percentage of buyers,"non"car people, etc.). This post is much different.

You should also know the Gen4 Camaro was cancelled due to the Halo requirements in 2003, and they did not have a design in place to replace the car therefore killing it temporarily.(You will claim this was due to low volume, I know)

And just because your my Dad(or old) doesn't mean you have any more knowledge, trust me I've had to prove that my whole life.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by doc212121

Thanks Pops!
If you see my other posts I have stated the exact same thing you did here. The statistics of what you were claiming in your prior post was what I was stating cannot be validated(percentage of buyers,"non"car people, etc.). This post is much different.

You should also know the Gen4 Camaro was cancelled due to the Halo requirements in 2003, and they did not have a design in place to replace the car therefore killing it temporarily.(You will claim this was due to low volume, I know)

And just because your my Dad(or old) doesn't mean you have any more knowledge, trust me I've had to prove that my whole life.

The 4th gen's demise was due to a few reasons....and any combination of importance among these reasons...

The car was unappealing to non-enthusiasts...the old design, albeit refreshed in 98, the "hump" in the passenger footwell, super-low seating position, and lack of a "fun" base model was among these reasons.

The car would not pass more stringent safety standards coming down from the feds.

The company did not have a replacement chassis ready, I expect this was because the brass did not feel the Camaro/Firebird was a successful car. 2002 sales were down to the 40,000s, if I recall correctly. Companies usually have replacements in the wings long before a car is due to be redesigned. There are rumors that the car was originally intended to be cancelled in 1998. Fbodfather, who was product manager at the time...drummed up the refresh to buy a few more years.

There were issues with the St. Therese factory in Canada...I believe towards the end, the Camaro and Firebird were the only cars coming out of a factory designed to produce multiples more vehicles. It wasn't cost-effective.

So...there are a few good comments in here...but none show the whole story.

Bottom line is, in order to keep a car like Camaro successful, it must SELL. And in order to sell, they must appeal to those of us that are not on the website. This is why they visit enthusiast events and read the forums. Our input is the nitty-gritty...petty...passionate commentary that they then mix into the batter of "everyone else" and produce a car that appeals to as many people as possible.

[bballr4567]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Sure

http://www.castlechevycars.com/new-v...s&page=1&years[]=2016&make[]=Chevrolet&models[]=Camaro&show_all_filters=false&_post_id=4

That is a VERY large dealer. 800 brand new cars and you're shocked they have 25 Camaros?

[doc212121]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

The 4th gen's demise was due to a few reasons....and any combination of importance among these reasons...

The car was unappealing to non-enthusiasts...the old design, albeit refreshed in 98, the "hump" in the passenger footwell, super-low seating position, and lack of a "fun" base model was among these reasons.

The car would not pass more stringent safety standards coming down from the feds.

The company did not have a replacement chassis ready, I expect this was because the brass did not feel the Camaro/Firebird was a successful car. 2002 sales were down to the 40,000s, if I recall correctly. Companies usually have replacements in the wings long before a car is due to be redesigned. There are rumors that the car was originally intended to be cancelled in 1998. Fbodfather, who was product manager at the time...drummed up the refresh to buy a few more years.

There were issues with the St. Therese factory in Canada...I believe towards the end, the Camaro and Firebird were the only cars coming out of a factory designed to produce multiples more vehicles. It wasn't cost-effective.

So...there are a few good comments in here...but none show the whole story.

Bottom line is, in order to keep a car like Camaro successful, it must SELL. And in order to sell, they must appeal to those of us that are not on the website. This is why they visit enthusiast events and read the forums. Our input is the nitty-gritty...petty...passionate commentary that they then mix into the batter of "everyone else" and produce a car that appeals to as many people as possible.

Agree with it all Mr. Wyndham, the dynamics of the auto industry are a combination of hundreds of factors, half of which the general public are unaware of and care to know about. Ultimately, in order to sell something, we have to offer a product the customer will want to buy or its game over in any industry that relies on sales to keep the doors open.

Now everyone go buy one! lol

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by bballr4567

That is a VERY large dealer. 800 brand new cars and you're shocked they have 25 Camaros?

That particular dealer has grown a lot in recent years, I guess I never realized how big though haha. Even driving by, it just doesn't seem like a huge dealership, but I guess when you drive past it at 50MPH you could not notice haha.

And I never said I was shocked that they had 25 Camaros. I said they are not flying off the lot here. Which also tied in with my comment about it being winter and an awful time to be buying a car like that.

I just looked at my 3 other local chevy dealers,

1 has 13 Camaros, (This one is what I consider an average size dealer 430 cars,) the other has 23(Large dealer over 600 cars) and the last one has 3(small dealer 250 cars)

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by doc212121

Now everyone go buy one! lol

Hear, Hear!!

[doc212121]

Originally Posted by shaffe

That particular dealer has grown a lot in recent years, I guess I never realized how big though haha. Even driving by, it just doesn't seem like a huge dealership, but I guess when you drive past it at 50MPH you could not notice haha.

And I never said I was shocked that they had 25 Camaros. I said they are not flying off the lot here. Which also tied in with my comment about it being winter and an awful time to be buying a car like that.

I just looked at my 3 other local chevy dealers,

1 has 13 Camaros, (This one is what I consider an average size dealer 430 cars,) the other has 23(Large dealer over 600 cars) and the last one has 3(small dealer 250 cars)

Make sure your breaking out the model year in those searches, most dealers have several 15's left that are showing as inventory, even the big lots in Detroit don't have 13 2016 Camaros.....maybe because we are buying them!?