[mjk3888]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

Just like you say some should buy a Z/28, we could say you should buy an SS. What skin is it off your teeth that not every Camaro model is built with you in mind?

I'm asking for a car to come with ONE more option to be a more desirable car with more mass appeal. You are asking for the car to come with less options and have a more narrow market.

Completely unrelated, but are you planning to buy a 6th gen 1LE?

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by Nicul15

Why do u think a 1LE is built for u and not mkj???

I'm not saying it should be built only for me. It's built for people that want something beyond what the SS offers.

Originally Posted by mjk3888

I'm asking for a car to come with ONE more option to be a more desirable car with more mass appeal. You are asking for the car to come with less options and have a more narrow market.

Completely unrelated, but are you planning to buy a 6th gen 1LE?

Al O said this car was designed and built for 2% of Camaro drivers. All I'm asking for is the car be left alone. With all the other options, there's no reason to change this one, unless GM is unhappy with how many they sold.

Yes, I do plan on buying a 6th gen 1LE, just not year 1. I want to enjoy my 15 for a while longer.

If the 1LE does not offer MRC, will you not buy it?

[6spdhyperblue]

We're saying the car as you like it will be made.

Or is it a exclusive thing?

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by Nicul15

We're saying the car as you like it will be made.

Or is it a exclusive thing?

No, I'm saying the 1LE is an option for a very small group. There are other options that fit for people who want MRC. The SS already outperforms the 5th gen 1LE.

Why do you want a 1LE so bad but can't stand the way it rides as is?

[aa406079]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

It came out for the 2013 model year, so three years.



The 1LE is far more streetable than you make it sound. I drive mine every day and have had many people in it. No one has complained about the ride. My 80 year old grandpa that has had multiple back surgeries loves it.

Is it a firm ride? Absolutely. Does it rattle your teeth out? No.

I'm sure California has wonderful, frost-heave free roads... .try places north that see extended periods of freezing and thawing....

Calgary gets chinooks, where you can go from -5*F to 62*F and back again in a 3-5 day period and generate beautiful stretches of road such as these....







Quite frankly I'm getting tired of hearing about how daily driveable your 1LE is on your sub tropical Socal blacktop as a reason not to offer it as AN OPTION.... I'M NOT ASKING GM TO CRAM MRC DOWN YOUR THROAT.

I'm sure if I had the opportunity to live in SoCal, I wouldnt need MRC on my car either.

In summer I want to track my car... yet you feel you should deny the 1LE to people because it needs to stay more "exclusive".


As to tracking the SS and having balanced handling at 9/10ths and 10/10ths driving.....

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by aa406079

I'm sure California has wonderful, frost-heave free roads... .try places north that see extended periods of freezing and thawing....

Calgary gets chinooks, where you can go from -5*F to 62*F and back again in a 3-5 day period and generate beautiful stretches of road such as these....







Quite frankly I'm getting tired of hearing about how daily driveable your 1LE is on your sub tropical Socal blacktop as a reason not to offer it as AN OPTION.... I'M NOT ASKING GM TO CRAM MRC DOWN YOUR THROAT.

I'm sure if I had the opportunity to live in SoCal, I wouldnt need MRC on my car either.

In summer I want to track my car... yet you feel you should deny the 1LE to people because it needs to stay more "exclusive".


As to tracking the SS and having balanced handling at 9/10ths and 10/10ths driving.....

I totally get your point...I really, really do. Parts of Buffalo feature the same pock-marked excuses for roadways...and I had the "pleasure" of navigating downtown Detroit once....

And for the record - if Mag Ride is offered in addition to the 1LE package - I will get it.

I just can't help but wonder what the world did before MRC...the 1LE really isn't so stiff as to require the technology...in my humble opinion. And it really doesn't stop the car from feeling all that nasty pothole business...

[Imp]

Originally Posted by crankaholic

GM should code new software for track packages (like the 1LE) to control MRC... when the car is set to a separate track mode, done only via a separate menu screen that explains that you shouldn't be messing with this stuff if you don't know jounce from rebound, that will allow you to tweak fixed low/high speed damping parameters. MRC is not inherently "bad" for serious track use, it's just a matter of being adjusted right for the driver and course. People also like to think they're Niki Lauda and can feel a minute difference in suspension adjustment

I've talked to a few people about this. (No I don't work for GM).

I would love to have something like "Track+" that sets the track mode to something more customizable that's something like...

Pick Track+. It sets track as a baseline. Then, you can adjust 4 sliders that each have values 1-5 for each:
- Front Rebound
- Front Compression
- Rear Rebound
- Rear Compression

Understanding that the difference between sport and track is a preset compression and rebound (or similar), then setting 1 would be 10% less than track, 2 would be 'track', 3 would be 10% more than track, 4 would be 20% more than track and 5 would be 30% more than track. (Or something maybe in 20% increments instead of 10%).

It's just software, and they know the frequencies. The only real question is if the MRC can handle any values more than track's setting, or is that the max?

--kC

[crankaholic]

Originally Posted by Imp

I've talked to a few people about this. (No I don't work for GM).

I would love to have something like "Track+" that sets the track mode to something more customizable that's something like...

Pick Track+. It sets track as a baseline. Then, you can adjust 4 sliders that each have values 1-5 for each:
- Front Rebound
- Front Compression
- Rear Rebound
- Rear Compression

Understanding that the difference between sport and track is a preset compression and rebound (or similar), then setting 1 would be 10% less than track, 2 would be 'track', 3 would be 10% more than track, 4 would be 20% more than track and 5 would be 30% more than track. (Or something maybe in 20% increments instead of 10%).

It's just software, and they know the frequencies. The only real question is if the MRC can handle any values more than track's setting, or is that the max?

--kC

Yeah, that's pretty much what I was thinking. From what I can tell, the car gets pretty stiff in track mode - enough where there is no noticeable body roll at all the the car follows most dips in the road surface. The issue for track enthusiasts is predictability and being able to control each corner individually. If GM provided a Track+ mode with those adjustments, why would you want standard adjustable dampers? I'd go so far as to offer a better constructed MRC damper, billet aluminum, with adjustable coil over springs!

Maybe I'm missing something... but wouldn't someone building a dedicated track car just get the cheapest SS and use aftermarket shocks, springs, anti-roll bars, brakes, etc...? Seems like the most logical choice if adjustability and maximum performance without streetability sacrifice is what you're after.

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by aa406079

I'm sure California has wonderful, frost-heave free roads... .try places north that see extended periods of freezing and thawing....

Calgary gets chinooks, where you can go from -5*F to 62*F and back again in a 3-5 day period and generate beautiful stretches of road such as these....







Quite frankly I'm getting tired of hearing about how daily driveable your 1LE is on your sub tropical Socal blacktop as a reason not to offer it as AN OPTION.... I'M NOT ASKING GM TO CRAM MRC DOWN YOUR THROAT.

I'm sure if I had the opportunity to live in SoCal, I wouldnt need MRC on my car either.

In summer I want to track my car... yet you feel you should deny the 1LE to people because it needs to stay more "exclusive".


As to tracking the SS and having balanced handling at 9/10ths and 10/10ths driving.....

With roads like that. I'd be more worried about rims than my back lol

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

[Imp]

Originally Posted by crankaholic

Yeah, that's pretty much what I was thinking. From what I can tell, the car gets pretty stiff in track mode - enough where there is no noticeable body roll at all the the car follows most dips in the road surface. The issue for track enthusiasts is predictability and being able to control each corner individually. If GM provided a Track+ mode with those adjustments, why would you want standard adjustable dampers? I'd go so far as to offer a better constructed MRC damper, billet aluminum, with adjustable coil over springs!

Maybe I'm missing something... but wouldn't someone building a dedicated track car just get the cheapest SS and use aftermarket shocks, springs, anti-roll bars, brakes, etc...? Seems like the most logical choice if adjustability and maximum performance without streetability sacrifice is what you're after.

Because each course has different surfaces and need for some fine tuning. Concrete? Asphalt, bumpy or glass smooth? Lots of sweepers? More slow corners? Those settings can help set the balance to not lose time.... and that to me is the game. Not "go faster" but "lose less time."

And I don't care about each corner. Always just front and rear the same.

--kC

[ST1LE]

I would love for the 1LE to have mag ride, but I personally don't see how that scenario would play out. Considering the point of the 1LE package is essentially a superior handling upgrade to an SS, I am willing to bet GM will have a specific tuned shock/strut combo as they did with the 5th Gen 1LE, a stiffer monotube shock with stock SS springs if memory serves. So if I am right, that gives them 2 options. A specific 1LE tune for MRC, or a specific 1LE shock/strut. It is unlikely they will offer both of these options for 1LE buyers, and nobody even knows for sure what range the mad ride has.

As far as just offering the MRC as an option, and taking in to account the above, that means a track tuned 1LE would be offered with a downgraded stock MRC setup? I am not saying it will or it won't. I just don't see how they could pull that off on the 1LE and keep it true to it roots and purpose of being a cheap, no compromise, extremely effective track option.

[Bhobbs]

Obviously my opinions are not popular, so I guess we have to wait until next Thursday.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

Obviously my opinions are not popular, so I guess we have to wait until next Thursday.

There is definitely a different tone in these 1LE discussions than there was with the last Gen right?

The hype I you!

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

So why not get a ZL1, or whatever the 6th gen version is called? It's going to have the power, tech and comfort. The 1LE is just an options package. No one is putting a gun to your head and making you buy it. If the option doesn't work for you, don't check the box.

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

Just like you say some should buy a Z/28, we could say you should buy an SS. What skin is it off your teeth that not every Camaro model is built with you in mind?

You're being just a little hypocritical with your arguments on this one...

Originally Posted by Nicul15

i would like to read more about this specifically: "but it(MRC) is NOT a track star...That's why the Camaro team opted for DSSV on the Z/28."

I'll do my best to explain it, and then I'll add some relevant quotes and descriptions from a few places I've amassed over the past few years. Forgive the 2nd-grade introduction.

The suspension on a car is designed to literally, suspend a vehicle above the road. Being stiff, and steel, the cars monocoque is incapable of softly absorbing bumps and imperfections in the road surface, so a suspension serves as the buffer between the road surface and the car itself. Any modern suspension will consist of linkages, springs, dampers, and swaybars. A properly-tuned suspension will address ALL of these components in a manner that they work systematically, and each component compliments the other.

The springs do most of the work. They hold the weight of the car, they establish a base balance of stiffness front/vs/rear, and they absorb the mechanical energy of the suspension's movements as a vehicle goes over the road.

The linkages establish in which direction the wheels/tires will move when a suspension compressed. They also allow for adjustment, and careful consideration must be given to the connections between the linkages. A soft rubber bushing will allow for far more uncontrolled movement than a metal or even polyurethane piece. Uncontrolled movements lead to issues like chassis jounce, "wheel hop", the rear end sliding to one side under hard acceleration, and skittering over an imperfect track surface. Any of these problems will undermine the entire suspension system.

The sway bars link the linkages in a vehicle's suspension from side to side. If left to their own devices, the body of the vehicle would roll infinitely, so a sway (or stabilizer) bar is used to link the vehicle's wheels laterally....and allow each side to react to what the other is doing. They also help adjust stiffness and balance front/vs/rear, & form a sort of "moving frame" beneath the vehicle.

However, when folks talk about DSSV (Dynamic Suspensions Spool Valve), or MRC (Magnetic Ride Control), what few realize is that each of these technologies only has to do with the dampers in the suspension system.

Dampers literally...dampen the movement of the springs. If you've ever played with a low-force spring, you'll notice that it moves what seems like forever when jostled, until you grab it, or in some other way forcibly stop the movement. This is because springs are mechanical energy "reservoirs". In the same way that they compress and absorb the energy contained within the movement of the suspension, they must also release this energy. Dampers restrain and control this energy release to prevent (again) uncontrolled suspension movement. Ever see a busted truck of van on the highway bouncing away every time there's a hump in the road? The dampers are bad and the springs are just springing away, up and down and up and down again.

Now, in the case of a "normal" damper...you have shim valves which act like little flaps to restrict the movement of a hydraulic fluid within the shock tube. The movement of fluid is the method that dampers control the spring's movement.

They provide mechanical resistance to movement, much like the closers on a house's storm doors that prevent it from slamming shut. You have control in the compression act of the suspension squeezing together; called bump stiffness...and there's control in the opposite movement of the suspension decompressing called; rebound stiffness. The relationship between these two settings will determine the dynamic (moving) character of a suspension on any vehicle. This is important when going over bumps, accelerating, braking, or entering and exiting a turn. The smaller the valve opening, the more resistance is provides. More expensive dampers can adjust how much resistance they offer by opening or closing the valves.

DSSV dampers take this method of damping to a new level by using an acutely-tunable valve system that is different from the standard shim-style valves. They can design and cut valving ports within just a couple microns of spec. And the shapes of the valves control how the dampers react to bump and rebound. The valve ports in the Z/28 are designed to allow for slightly different rates of fluid flow (different stiffnesses) at different speeds of motion. A more rapid, or violent bounce will be held in stiffer control with DSSV, while a less rapid bump on a city street will not be restricted quite as much. But ultimately, there are two features to DSSV technology that made them appealing to Mark Stielow, the lead engineer responsible for the Z/28's go-fastness...1) They are lighter-weight than the tech-heavy MRC shocks. And 2) They are accurate in tuning, predictable in response, and repeatable in character. Any racer will tell you that consistency is key to improving your lap times. DSSV dampers will act the same way, all the time, every time, no matter what the conditions of the track. But they're infinitely more accurate to tune and design for chassis control than a regular damper. That's what makes them expensive.

Magnetic Ride control takes a wild new approach to damping that is unlike any other damper on the market. Even the mechanically-adjustable ones used by some European marques some years ago. Originally developed in-house when AC Delco was part of General Motors...the dampers don't have any valves. They have restrictive ports that allow fluid to move freely through them. Wrapped around these ports, inside the shock tube, are electromagnetic coils that generate a strong magnetic field when a current is passed through them. Within the shock is not a simple hydraulic fluid, but rather a substance called magnetorheological fluid. This fluid is suspended within a more standard hydraulic fluid - and when exposed to an electromagnetic field...it becomes more viscous. In extreme cases, to the point of being almost solid. Furthermore, it can vary it's viscosity or "thickness" infinitely depending on the intensity of the magnetic field. Think about a fluid that can vary in "stickyness" from that of warm vegetable oil to something more like really really cold molasses!!

Obviously the thicker the fluid, the more it will resist passing through those open "valve" ports in the shock I mentioned earlier. The more intense the magnetic field applied to the coils, the thicker the fluid becomes, resisting flow, and the shock becomes much stiffer. So - by sensing the movement in the suspension components and comparing the motion to what the car "should" be doing with some sophisticated on-board software, the computer adjusts the intensity of the magnetic field 1000 times a second, or every inch of travel at 60 mph, which therefore adjusts the stiffness of the shock. When you or I choose "track" or "tour" modes from the inside of the car - what you're actually doing is selecting a different force-velocity preset for the dampers...biased towards stiffer, or comfort. No matter what mode you're in - they are rapidly, and constantly adjusting stiffness.

Now...why is DSSV better for a track? Because the faster you go, the less accurate Mag Ride becomes. While still impressive...at 120mph, a lot can change in the road in two inches travel (which is the amount of distance the suspension can keep up with). Furthermore...there are no valves, and the fluid is not a normal "clean" hydraulic fluid...which means that any variation in the consistency of the MR fluid right at the port...can vary the bounce/rebound character of the shock. It's not dramatic...but it is a variation. And they cannot tune the MR system with nearly the same level of accuracy that you can tune something like DSSV.

It is VERY, VERY good...In fact, it's a Phenomenal damping system. But it is *NOT* bred for track use. It is designed to allow engineers to develop a track oriented suspension in terms of spring stiffness, stabilizer bars, and linkages...but then use a magic magnetorheological damper to compensate for this stiffness with smoothness and nearly-infinite adjustability. There are, however, more specialized systems (like DSSV) that over specific benefits when developing a car for strict on-track performance.

Now, some in here have suggested adding MR to a specific 1LE-tuned suspension would hinder it's performance...and that's not necessarily true. Remember there are other factors at work in a suspension system. A revised software system for MR, and stiffer springs, roll bars, and more direct linkages from the 1LE package could be quite impressive. However, this (if offered) is more than likely going to be an option, because MR itself is illegal equipment in competitive circles...and this Camaro team would not create a track-focused version of the SS that can't compete in a sanctioned track event due to standard equipment. (This is part of my curiosity regarding Ford's use of the technology on the GT350R...most certainly any one of those cars competing in events is not using a factory suspension.)

Below are some quotes from Mark Stielow, lead engineer on the Z/28, and some excerpts from press releases by GM, and the SAE.

MS: Mainly it was the mass savings. DSSV is lighter. We wanted to explore that tech on a niche vehicle. Perfect place to work with a new tech.

MS: Lighter than magnetic ride, DSSV is infinitely tunable. As Mark Stielow, the Z/28's lead engineer, told us, the DSSV suspension allows them to separate the crosstalk between compression and rebound, which makes for a stiff, controlled ride, perfect for the track.

Originally Posted by SAE

The Z/28 is the first high-volume production road car to employ racing-derived DSSV® or Dynamic Suspensions Spool Valve damper technology from Multimatic. The dampers rely upon a pair of self-piloted spool valves to control fluid through tuned port shapes rather than conventional deflected disc dampers. The design of the inverted-monotube front strut and aluminum-body monotube rear hydraulic dampers offers maximum response, stiffness and tuning optimized for the track, with the highest level of damper predictability, accuracy and repeatability. In short, they deliver optimal wheel control and vehicle control – and they provide almost double the stiffness when compared to the dampers on the Camaro SS 1LE.

but the one you notice most is their ability to instantly recover from rapid transitions between compression and rebound…As a result the Z/28 feels immensely poised and is unflustered by bumps, crests and jumps. When we point this out to our MRC driver, Bill Wise, during the cool-down lap of our brief track outing, he perfectly summarizes how this aspect of the Multimatic dampers actually makes the car faster. "I can return to the throttle much sooner because I don't have to wait for the chassis to take a set.”…In terms of chassis composure, the Z/28 is indeed fairly astonishing, at least from the passenger seat.

Spool valves deliver the highest level of damper predictability, accuracy, and repeatability, reported Holt. That is why spool valves are used in most hydraulic applications for regulating the flow of hydraulic fluid.

But while the shape of their ports accurately determines the shocks’ force-velocity curve, those ports need to be accurate to within 2 microns of their design. Cutting such accurate ports originally took as long as 45 min. Now, laser cutters can do the job in as little as seven seconds, Holt said. Furthermore, the laser-cut ports have better internal surfaces, he added.

Spool valves are preferred to conventional shim-valve technology because any force-velocity curve can be designed in Mulitmatic’s SpecFinder software and created by the spool valve’s port design and the rate of the spring beneath the piston. The result is so predictable that racing teams using the company’s spool valve shocks don’t even use shock dynos to verify the results anymore, he said.

Conventional shocks uses stacks of steel shims over a port which deflect in the flow of hydraulic fluid. Valving characteristics are changed by varying the thickness and diameter of the shims, which is less precise, and more significantly, less repeatable, than cutting spool-valve ports.

Shim stacks are subject to lift and flutter at high damper frequencies, problems that don’t exist for spool valves. Furthermore, spool valves are resistant to the effects of heat, making them consistent over the course of a race. “Transient response is significantly better than conventional technology,” reported Holt.
Typically, carmakers demand shock suppliers deliver products with a margin of error of +/- 10 % of the specified values, Holt reported. Formula One teams demand their shocks are within 0.5%. The shocks for the Z/28 are within 2%, he said.

Because carmakers lose money on the relatively high number of high-performance shocks that do not perform as specified, using Multimatic’s DSSV technology, which might cost more on a per-unit basis, could cost them less because of the reduced number of rejects and warranty claims, according to Holt.

The Camaro’s shocks are non-adjustable, with separate valving for compression and rebound. The large 45 mm diameter front strut design improves the rigidity of the damper’s attachment to the car and improves steering feel and vehicle response.

The rear is also 45 mm, and its aluminum construction cuts 2.6 lb from the car compared to the standard Camaro shocks.