[crankaholic]

Originally Posted by IOMike

I'd rather see a H2H vs the GT350R. The numbers the 1ss is putting down surpass the GT350 already.

The backlash from the Mustang crowd was to be expected as soon as the specs and capabilities of the new Camaro came to light. It doesn't just leap frog the GT, it leaves it in the dust.

Come on dude... I love my 2SS, and I chose it over the base GT350 for a reason (primarily because the vast majority of my driving will be limited to the street). However, you can't seriously think it would keep up with a GT350R around a track - that car has some serious aero, tires, and track suspension setup! I can see a fair comparison between a mag ride 2SS with 6 piston Brembos and the base GT350; but even a track pack GT350 should be a more capable track car.

Honestly the base GT350 costs about as much (when dealers stop adding $10k on top ) as a fully loaded 2SS. They make a nice comparison because with one you pay for bespoke (and track ready) engine, transmission, brakes, and wheels (even the stock wheels are forged aluminum 19"); while with the other you get a much more comfortable and livable GT car.

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by IOMike

I'd rather see a H2H vs the GT350R. The numbers the 1ss is putting down surpass the GT350 already.

The backlash from the Mustang crowd was to be expected as soon as the specs and capabilities of the new Camaro came to light. It doesn't just leap frog the GT, it leaves it in the dust.

It's funny that they don't even consider the GTPP competition for the 1LE despite both being options packages on the base V8 cars. That and their only argument is the 1LE is ugly, which it's not.

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by EricTheCamaroGuy

They're still testing it though. I would love to see those wheels in any production Camaro, even though I have the black 5 spoke wheels that fit well with the car in my opinion (my car is practically black on black on black; black exterior, black wheels, black interior). I know black absorbs more heat and that my ass will burn upon contact in 100 degree heat when I sit on it, but I still like it.

I have a feeling those will be the production wheels. The early testing was done with the previous generation 10 spokes and these new 10 spokes showed up recently. They are probably pretty close to being done with the car, except for minor details.

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by crankaholic

Come on dude... I love my 2SS, and I chose it over the base GT350 for a reason (primarily because the vast majority of my driving will be limited to the street). However, you can't seriously think it would keep up with a GT350R around a track - that car has some serious aero, tires, and track suspension setup! I can see a fair comparison between a mag ride 2SS with 6 piston Brembos and the base GT350; but even a track pack GT350 should be a more capable track car.

Honestly the base GT350 costs about as much (when dealers stop adding $10k on top ) as a fully loaded 2SS. They make a nice comparison because with one you pay for bespoke (and track ready) engine, transmission, brakes, and wheels (even the stock wheels are forged aluminum 19"); while with the other you get a much more comfortable and livable GT car.

Yea definitely not comparing it to the GT350R, base GT350 is another story. An SS will most likely beat a base GT350 (even though you'll never see a base GT350 in any comparison). The GT350TP will be the real competition for the SS. Their numbers are neck and neck in instrumented testing, but I would still give the GT350TP the advantage on the track.

Why not compare a 1SS to base GT350? Or better yet to a 1SS to a GT350TP? At $55k MSRP, suddenly that $37k 1SS with that performance is the real deal, but people always like to compare a 2SS to GT350 with none of the bells and whistles that a 2SS adds, then they inflate the price on the 2SS more by adding wheels, dress up, sunroof, etc... to make the GT350 look like the bargain it is not.

[gajagfan]

Originally Posted by toehead93

Sorry to bring you down but those are the ZL1/1LE wheels for the gen5.

I don't think they are Gen 5 wheels. They look a bit different. The two spokes that are close together look closer on these wheels than they do on our car.

[crankaholic]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

Yea definitely not comparing it to the GT350R, base GT350 is another story. An SS will most likely beat a base GT350 (even though you'll never see a base GT350 in any comparison). The GT350TP will be the real competition for the SS. Their numbers are neck and neck in instrumented testing, but I would still give the GT350TP the advantage on the track.

Why not compare a 1SS to base GT350? Or better yet to a 1SS to a GT350TP? At $55k MSRP, suddenly that $37k 1SS with that performance is the real deal, but people always like to compare a 2SS to GT350 with none of the bells and whistles that a 2SS adds, then they inflate the price on the 2SS more by adding wheels, dress up, sunroof, etc... to make the GT350 look like the bargain it is not.

Honestly... I think the engine/transmission combo in the GT350 is worth every penny - they were designed with maximum revs and lightest weight in mind. The GT350 also comes with bigger floating brakes and 6 piston calipers, forged 19" wheels (much better than the 30+lbs crap we got), and Recaro seats. I get what you're saying with the base 1SS and both cars not having all the comfort features... but a 1SS with MRC, NPP and 6 piston Brembos is $43k; while a base GT350 is $48k. I think it's worth the extra $5k - rear floating brakes and forged 19" wheels will cost at least $2k after selling stock parts (if taken off right away).

I'm not saying the GT350 is a bargain, but I think all versions are reasonably priced for what you get. Unless you've never revved an engine past 5000RPM and just don't care about such things.

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by crankaholic

but a 1SS with MRC, NPP and 6 piston Brembos is $43k; while a base GT350 is $48k. I think it's worth the extra $5k - rear floating brakes and forged 19" wheels will cost at least $2k after selling stock parts (if taken off right away).

But none of those are needed to best the performance of a base GT350. So really you are adding more to 1SS because you want it. No one has reviewed the 6 pots on a 1SS, so really we don't know how much a difference it makes. But with only 2 feet being the difference between the 1SS without 6 pots and the GT350TP, it should be a noticeable jump. Their ability to last longer on the track could be the biggest benefit. Same thing for MRC, which also hasn't been confirmed to make a measurable difference at the track.

As far as it being worth the cost of the engine, that's not a logical argument...it's an emotional one and you can't put prices on that. My emotions tell me I want both, my budget and wife say otherwise lol.

[toehead93]

The GT350 engine is unique and cool with 526hp but at the end of the day lacks in torque with 429, the LT1 is 455/455. It revs high because it has too, some people think any engine with high rpms is better which would be true if made power down low too but it doesn't. It just makes power up high so at the end of the day it doesn't outperform the LT1 by much if any. I'm looking for an overlay comparing both which I thought I've seen posted somewhere so we can see how much usable power is under the curve of both engines.

[KMPrenger]

Originally Posted by crankaholic

Come on dude... I love my 2SS, and I chose it over the base GT350 for a reason (primarily because the vast majority of my driving will be limited to the street). However, you can't seriously think it would keep up with a GT350R around a track - that car has some serious aero, tires, and track suspension setup! I can see a fair comparison between a mag ride 2SS with 6 piston Brembos and the base GT350; but even a track pack GT350 should be a more capable track car.

Honestly the base GT350 costs about as much (when dealers stop adding $10k on top ) as a fully loaded 2SS. They make a nice comparison because with one you pay for bespoke (and track ready) engine, transmission, brakes, and wheels (even the stock wheels are forged aluminum 19"); while with the other you get a much more comfortable and livable GT car.

My opinion, as I've stated over and over, is that aside from the obvious advantage in peak HP, I believe a M6 1SS, with Mag ride and upgraded brakes is a very viable base GT350 competitor for less money. They aren't (yet) offered by the factory, but better rubber on the SS would help that much more and maybe even best the GT350 on tighter tracks.

A 1SS 1LE will probably be available for 41 - 42K, and I think it will certainly outclass a base Gt350 in almost every performance metric...again except for the top end and I think will approach GT350TP territory for a hell of a lot less $$$.

I know it won't happen, but if the 1LE came with a 500+ HP version of the LT1...even if that added another couple grand to the price on top of what we already expected a 1LE package to cost, it would be a game changer, matching or beating the GT350TP for 10 grand less.

I do think that they might including the option GM intake/tune which could add another 10 or 15 ponies to the top end.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by toehead93

The GT350 engine is unique and cool with 526hp but at the end of the day lacks in torque with 429, the LT1 is 455/455. It revs high because it has too, some people think any engine with high rpms is better which would be true if made power down low too but it doesn't. It just makes power up high so at the end of the day it doesn't outperform the LT1 by much if any. I'm looking for an overlay comparing both which I thought I've seen posted somewhere so we can see how much usable power is under the curve of both engines.

Here is one Baylor made. Remember that the base GT350 doesn't have the track cooling unless you option up to the TP. In base form the GT350 is not a track car without the cooling but you need the tech package to make it nice street car. Add that the engine doesn't come alive until 4000 rpm and vibrates like hell when it is, it just doesn't seem like a good choice for a street car. So the base GT350 is just a low MSRP headline.

[Memphis43]

The LT1 will need a slight increase to compete.

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by hotlapZL1

So the base GT350 is just a low MSRP headline.

Exactly. I bet 1 or 2% of GT350 sales will be no option. It might as well not exist for anyone who wants a track car or a street car. Kind like all the guys who want a 1SS with no track ready equipment, or extras. Maybe 1% of potential buyers.

[crankaholic]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

But none of those are needed to best the performance of a base GT350. So really you are adding more to 1SS because you want it. No one has reviewed the 6 pots on a 1SS, so really we don't know how much a difference it makes. But with only 2 feet being the difference between the 1SS without 6 pots and the GT350TP, it should be a noticeable jump. Their ability to last longer on the track could be the biggest benefit. Same thing for MRC, which also hasn't been confirmed to make a measurable difference at the track.

As far as it being worth the cost of the engine, that's not a logical argument...it's an emotional one and you can't put prices on that. My emotions tell me I want both, my budget and wife say otherwise lol.

Originally Posted by toehead93

The GT350 engine is unique and cool with 526hp but at the end of the day lacks in torque with 429, the LT1 is 455/455. It revs high because it has too, some people think any engine with high rpms is better which would be true if made power down low too but it doesn't. It just makes power up high so at the end of the day it doesn't outperform the LT1 by much if any. I'm looking for an overlay comparing both which I thought I've seen posted somewhere so we can see how much usable power is under the curve of both engines.

Originally Posted by KMPrenger

My opinion, as I've stated over and over, is that aside from the obvious advantage in peak HP, I believe a M6 1SS, with Mag ride and upgraded brakes is a very viable base GT350 competitor for less money. They aren't (yet) offered by the factory, but better rubber on the SS would help that much more and maybe even best the GT350 on tighter tracks.

A 1SS 1LE will probably be available for 41 - 42K, and I think it will certainly outclass a base Gt350 in almost every performance metric...again except for the top end and I think will approach GT350TP territory for a hell of a lot less $$$.

I know it won't happen, but if the 1LE came with a 500+ HP version of the LT1...even if that added another couple grand to the price on top of what we already expected a 1LE package to cost, it would be a game changer, matching or beating the GT350TP for 10 grand less.

I do think that they might including the option GM intake/tune which could add another 10 or 15 ponies to the top end.

I agree with you guys that the 1SS comes very close to some performance #s of the GT350. However, based on the hardware of both cars the GT350 will be a much more enjoyable track car - which is also woth $ to many people.

The flat-plane crank engine is only more powerful in the upper rev range, with acceleration tests confirming that power under curve is very similar to the LT1. That's all good, but I'm sure the person in the GT350 will have more fun revving it out.

The brake upgrade is mostly useless below 40 mph in terms of stopping power, feel is a different story however. Above 60mph and for repeated stops, those big brakes will make a bigger difference though.

I bought the Camaro because overall it was a better fit for how I'm going to use the car... and there wasn't a crazy dealer markup. Definitely not because the car matched a higher priced Mustang in 0-60 and 60-0 performance metrics. I wouldn't have bought the last gen 1LE over the GT350... even if it outperformed the Mustang.

The standard GT Mustang (track pack or no) is completely outclassed by the SS though... there's definitely no denying that.

[6spdhyperblue]

Originally Posted by crankaholic

I agree with you guys that the 1SS comes very close to some performance #s of the GT350. However, based on the hardware of both cars the GT350 will be a much more enjoyable track car - which is also woth $ to many people.

The flat-plane crank engine is only more powerful in the upper rev range, with acceleration tests confirming that power under curve is very similar to the LT1. That's all good, but I'm sure the person in the GT350 will have more fun revving it out.

The brake upgrade is mostly useless below 40 mph in terms of stopping power, feel is a different story however. Above 60mph and for repeated stops, those big brakes will make a bigger difference though.

I bought the Camaro because overall it was a better fit for how I'm going to use the car... and there wasn't a crazy dealer markup. Definitely not because the car matched a higher priced Mustang in 0-60 and 60-0 performance metrics. I wouldn't have bought the last gen 1LE over the GT350... even if it outperformed the Mustang.

The standard GT Mustang (track pack or no) is completely outclassed by the SS though... there's definitely no denying that.

one minute on the street the LT1 will be much less annoying. even the standard coyote leaves me looking for more with its lack of grunt real down low. a boss and voodoo would be wayyy worse. thats just my opinion, there are tons of heavier imports(e92 m3) that lack the power down low much worse then these ford engines.