[fastball]

Originally Posted by drivingagain

You did not add any options. It is a 2ss with sunroof. if you optioned the car out to most 2ss owners on here then I would agree there is more room. Look at an invoice and you can figure this out quickly. Buying a car is not rocket science. I sold cars for many years and can write your deal in my sleep of what you will get any time soon.

Please.

2SS has:

RS package
"2" level trim
Lighting and Convenience package
Technology Package
Brembo Brake package

All included as standard equipment. So yes, it is very much a highly optioned car over the base 1LT.

If you followed what I said, and if you're a salesman I'm sure you aren't going to agree but what a car salesman says and what the truth can be two very different things, both cars are the Alpha platform Camaro. There is your base line. The 2SS has all the options. The 1LT has no options.

Ergo, the 2SS has a bigger profit margin than a 1LT.

[Doc]

Originally Posted by drivingagain

Doc- I do not agree with this whole rant. How do you compare a fully loaded all options clicked 40k V6 Camaro and then go buy a Mazda 6. These cars are not in the same league of performance. A Mazda 6 is a family sedan. Yes the speed 6 gave it some performance but still front wheel drive and the speed had horrible gas mileage.

I think for the all the people here gripping about the price quit focusing on fully loaded models. Really who wants a performance car and says they are car guys and gets a v6 fully loaded Camaro? I bought a 1SS and would not change it for anything else under 60k. In fact for my needs not much under 100k I would change trade this car for and DAILY DRIVE it! I plan on getting 200k miles on this and did not see any money wasted for what I want.

I don't know that what I said was extreme enough to be considered a "rant". I wasn't comparing a fully loaded all options V6 Camaro; the one I wanted was a 2LT with auto trans, convenience package and exhaust option. I wasn't buying it for high performance; my 5th gen fits that bill. I was looking for a sporty daily driver with some convenience options. The V6 Camaro was the only one available; the 4 cyl version wasn't and still isn't.

A base 1LT V6 with auto trans would still be over $31k which is about $10,000 more than the Mazda I bought. It would have more power but not get as good gas mileage. My commute is half an hour and all on city streets; nothing over 50 mph with most of it below 40 mph. More power is not something I could use; gas mileage is. If the Camaro had been $25k I probably would have gone for it, but I just couldn't see spending another $10k for the use I needed to buy it for. The Mazda 6 Sport I bought fit the bill perfectly. My tricked-out 2010 1SS Camaro is my fun car, but I can't drive it in the snow or in icy conditions.

I realize of course that my desires and needs aren't everybody's, but if the sales of the 6th gen don't perform like the 5th gen did, I think my assessment of the situation is probably pretty close to what the cause/issue will be.

[drivingagain]

Originally Posted by fastball

Please.

2SS has:

RS package
"2" level trim
Lighting and Convenience package
Technology Package
Brembo Brake package

All included as standard equipment. So yes, it is very much a highly optioned car over the base 1LT.

If you followed what I said, and if you're a salesman I'm sure you aren't going to agree but what a car salesman says and what the truth can be two very different things, both cars are the Alpha platform Camaro. There is your base line. The 2SS has all the options. The 1LT has no options.

Ergo, the 2SS has a bigger profit margin than a 1LT.

See this is why I said look at a invoice. The dealer can only negotiate invoice minus 2-3% for hold back. Now when you add options over a specific model there is more that can be taken off. The invoice on a 2ss is between 1700-1800 to MSRP. Have you seen an invoice before? Your sunroof option is 900 and dealer gets charged 819. This is only a $81 difference that can be saved for this option. These are the options that you can negotiate. This is all outside a rebate as well. I am not a car salesman any more I own a law firm. So big difference. LOL I am just trying to help you understand how and what to negotiate. Just picking a number out of the sky and saying that is what I am willing to pay is not educated or worthy of a discount. As a former salesperson I would have walked away. You are wasting time and not worth it because you do not have any facts. At the least if you are a buyer one day go find a GM supplier discount. This will help you and the salesperson make it easy. Yes you will spend an extra couple hundred dollars. If your time is not worth that in aggravation then I see why you will be aggravating. Do your homework and negotiate smart is all I am saying.

[drivingagain]

Originally Posted by Doc

I don't know that what I said was extreme enough to be considered a "rant". I wasn't comparing a fully loaded all options V6 Camaro; the one I wanted was a 2LT with auto trans, convenience package and exhaust option. I wasn't buying it for high performance; my 5th gen fits that bill. I was looking for a sporty daily driver with some convenience options. The V6 Camaro was the only one available; the 4 cyl version wasn't and still isn't.

A base 1LT V6 with auto trans would still be over $31k which is about $10,000 more than the Mazda I bought. It would have more power but not get as good gas mileage. My commute is half an hour and all on city streets; nothing over 50 mph with most of it below 40 mph. More power is not something I could use; gas mileage is. If the Camaro had been $25k I probably would have gone for it, but I just couldn't see spending another $10k for the use I needed to buy it for. The Mazda 6 Sport I bought fit the bill perfectly. My tricked-out 2010 1SS Camaro is my fun car, but I can't drive it in the snow or in icy conditions.

I realize of course that my desires and needs aren't everybody's, but if the sales of the 6th gen don't perform like the 5th gen did, I think my assessment of the situation is probably pretty close to what the cause/issue will be.

You mentioned a 40k v6 in post. Sorry that is what I was going off of.
Name another sports car with 335hp for less than 31k? Nissan 370z Is close but no back seat. No more Honda s2000 (light so power to weight). Subaru wrx sti close but not getting 200k miles on that turbo 4 cylinder. Subaru BRZ (Toyota FRS) 200hp. Rides like crap for a daily driver. The new mazda Miata costs how much? 31k with options. All I was referencing is that you were not looking for a daily driver performance car. You were looking for a commuter car. So to compare and say the price is high seems like a rant to me. Really could have got away with a Chevrolet Cruze diesel and got better gas mileage. I have been a big import fan myself. I was a huge Nissan fan. In fact I bought my wife a 2012 Nissan Pathfinder over a Chevrolet tahoe. For our needs it made better sense. Although the Tahoe has one of the highest resale value I have ever seen outside diesel trucks.

[KMPrenger]

Originally Posted by 01pewterz28

At this time nothing going to spend time with my girls and watch them grow up and spend most of our time at the Mouse House since we purchased DVC last year.

I thought I'd respond to this. Having a very young child(ren) in the house, even when you have a separate daily driver and can afford to have a "toy" like this...it can still be difficult to justify the purchase, at least in my opinion.

Taking care of the Camaro (which I do enjoy...its a form of stress relief) and then actually go on enjoyable "just because" road trips is difficult to do simply b/c of a lack of time.

I feel you. Now that I have my 6th gen SS....I love it and don't plan to part anytime soon. But I am worried that b/c of my lack of time for it, I'll enjoy it less than I did my 5th gen V6. We'll see how the next year or two go. Part of me thinks maybe I should have just ended up in a loaded Colorado or Canyon crew (and also gotten rid of my current DD which is an 06 Colorado crew), but then a big part of me thinks its important to keep yourself happy and have a little fun if at all possible...just to keep my sanity in check lol. My family is most important of course and if needed I'd sell the Camaro in a second, but for me..."me time" is also a big deal. Cars is a big passion of mine, so keeping that alive is important.

[drivingagain]

Originally Posted by KMPrenger

I thought I'd respond to this. Having a very young child(ren) in the house, even when you have a separate daily driver and can afford to have a "toy" like this...it can still be difficult to justify the purchase, at least in my opinion.

Taking care of the Camaro (which I do enjoy...its a form of stress relief) and then actually go on enjoyable "just because" road trips is difficult to do simply b/c of a lack of time.

I feel you. Now that I have my 6th gen SS....I love it and don't plan to part anytime soon. But I am worried that b/c of my lack of time for it, I'll enjoy it less than I did my 5th gen V6. We'll see how the next year or two go. Part of me thinks maybe I should have just ended up in a loaded Colorado or Canyon crew (and also gotten rid of my current DD which is an 06 Colorado crew), but then a big part of me thinks its important to keep yourself happy and have a little fun if at all possible...just to keep my sanity in check lol. My family is most important of course and if needed I'd sell the Camaro in a second, but for me..."me time" is also a big deal. Cars is a big passion of mine, so keeping that alive is important.

I am a huge family person and I have waited almost 10 years for my "me" car. Although if it makes you happy and you have the means it can be definitely worth it. I broke two of my rules buying this car this year. Do not buy new and do not buy a first model. Bad business decision. Although a great personal decision I made for myself for once. Now I can go back to being really frugal. LOL

[Whitespeed]

Perception vs reality appears to be way off when it comes to Camaro pricing, at least then it comes to MSRP. The Mustang is obviously the direct competitor, and I've gone through the pricing and configurations for both it and the Camaro in detail. To get equivalent features and somewhat close to (but still far short of) the performance of the Camaro from the Mustang, the Mustang is very near to and in some cases, more expensive than the Camaro. Unfortunately, through my discussions on other forums, I've found this to be very difficult for people to comprehend. Basic math and apples to apples comparisons seems to be beyond the grasp of a lot of people.

The biggest difference in msrp price that I could find for similar trim levels was between a base Mustang Premium GT and a base 2SS, at $3700. But for that price difference, the Mustang doesn't come with the upgraded 19" wheels, big brakes, suspension upgrades, rear end ratio, etc, or any of the advanced tech you get in the 2SS. You have to add the $2500 Performance Package and $1700 Equipment group to the GT Premium, for an extra $4200. Even then, the Camaro will significantly outperform the Mustang in every way.

For the extra you do have to pay for the Camaro, it's an outstanding value for what you get! Sounds like getting people to recognize that may be a challenge though. I guess if they really wanted to drop the price, they could make the SS's nothing more than LT's with the V8, and then make the RS, brake and cooling package, and tech packages optional on the SS's like they do for the LT's. This appears to be the approach Ford has taken with the Mustang.

Nigel

[01pewterz28]

Yep for me it’s been 2 years since I really fully enjoyed the Camaros, but with 3 young ones who do not enjoy the cars it’s not fun for me to enjoy it when they do not. The car scene in my area has gotten boring it’s the same old thing, I have been doing 1 car show for the past 19 years (Annual Fbody Gathering in Atlanta) and this will be only my 2nd year not going. I have lost the passion, I look at my car in the garage and to be honest I am ready to see it gone. When I was getting my oil change before Christmas I saw several at one dealership and I had no excitement for it. Don’t get me wrong the car looks great, it’s so much more than my 2010 but at this time I will not purchase a 6th. Could my mind change sure but someone who works on average 65-70 hours a week and I only see my wife and kids for 2-3 hours a night I spend whatever free time I have with them.

Originally Posted by KMPrenger

I thought I'd respond to this. Having a very young child(ren) in the house, even when you have a separate daily driver and can afford to have a "toy" like this...it can still be difficult to justify the purchase, at least in my opinion.

Taking care of the Camaro (which I do enjoy...its a form of stress relief) and then actually go on enjoyable "just because" road trips is difficult to do simply b/c of a lack of time.

I feel you. Now that I have my 6th gen SS....I love it and don't plan to part anytime soon. But I am worried that b/c of my lack of time for it, I'll enjoy it less than I did my 5th gen V6. We'll see how the next year or two go. Part of me thinks maybe I should have just ended up in a loaded Colorado or Canyon crew (and also gotten rid of my current DD which is an 06 Colorado crew), but then a big part of me thinks its important to keep yourself happy and have a little fun if at all possible...just to keep my sanity in check lol. My family is most important of course and if needed I'd sell the Camaro in a second, but for me..."me time" is also a big deal. Cars is a big passion of mine, so keeping that alive is important.

[drivingagain]

Originally Posted by Whitespeed

Perception vs reality appears to be way off when it comes to Camaro pricing, at least then it comes to MSRP. The Mustang is obviously the direct competitor, and I've gone through the pricing and configurations for both it and the Camaro in detail. To get equivalent features and somewhat close to (but still far short of) the performance of the Camaro from the Mustang, the Mustang is very near to and in some cases, more expensive than the Camaro. Unfortunately, through my discussions on other forums, I've found this to be very difficult for people to comprehend. Basic math and apples to apples comparisons seems to be beyond the grasp of a lot of people.

The biggest difference in msrp price that I could find for similar trim levels was between a base Mustang Premium GT and a base 2SS, at $3700. But for that price difference, the Mustang doesn't come with the upgraded 19" wheels, big brakes, suspension upgrades, rear end ratio, etc, or any of the advanced tech you get in the 2SS. You have to add the $2500 Performance Package and $1700 Equipment group to the GT Premium, for an extra $4200. Even then, the Camaro will significantly outperform the Mustang in every way.

For the extra you do have to pay for the Camaro, it's an outstanding value for what you get! Sounds like getting people to recognize that may be a challenge though. I guess if they really wanted to drop the price, they could make the SS's nothing more than LT's with the V8, and then make the RS, brake and cooling package, and tech packages optional on the SS's like they do for the LT's. This appears to be the approach Ford has taken with the Mustang.

Nigel

Seems like a good observation Nigel. I have noticed this too. Like some one who was comparing a used porsche to a brand new Camaro 2ss. Same price but performance wise the Camaro blows the doors off the car and it is new. I do not think Chevrolet made this car to be a grand touring car. Remember folks the Camaro is an everyday performance car. The value is in the base performance not the lighting options with leather.

[KMPrenger]

Originally Posted by Doc

The Camaro is a high-profile, glamorous, attention-getting car. If there are cars sitting on the lots, discounts being offered and incentives already on a car of this reputation and type that's only been available for a couple of months that's not a good sign. Don't get me wrong; I'm not complaining about the car; it's a fantastic machine worth every penny. But it appears to have a problem already and as I see it, this problem is a simple one; sticker-shock.

Which brings this conversation up again:

http://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=420754

I think GM figured since they saw so many 5th gen owners pouring money into modding their cars, they just thought it would be a great performance move to build all that and more right into the car up front. Great idea; for the performance enthusiasts. But there's an uncomfortable side-effect.

If I add mods later; intake, wheels, headers, exhaust, etc. then that's something I budgeted for as a one-time purchase. The car payment and insurance payment is still based on the original sticker-price I paid for the car. If all those expenses are built into the car up front, the sticker price is higher and so is the insurance, which makes the monthly payment higher. And that's where the discomfort is.

People aren't excitement buying; they're taking pause and thinking about it carefully which is not good for sales. I think it's the impact of the monthly cost that's making people hesitate. It happened to me; I wanted a new daily driver to replace my aging Toyota. I wanted a new Camaro but a 2LT V6 with automatic was going to be about $40k with the few items I wanted on it. Did I really want to spend that much money for a car I would basically just be driving to work and have sit in the parking lot? I wound up buying a new 2016 Mazda6 with automatic for $21,393. It's solid, no squeaks or rattles (even in single digit temps), fit and finish is excellent, seats are quite comfortable, beautifully styled interior, good power, averaging 30 mpg in an all stop-and-go commute, 4 doors, 4 usable seats... just what I needed and more. For about half the price of the Camaro I was considering.

This is a problem that GM needs to take a serious look at. It's great to make the Camaro a fantastic high-performance sports GT, but it's now moved up to a price level that has pushed it into a new demographic which is basically the Corvette demographic. The Camaro that used to be the affordable performance car that wasn't as high performance as its more expensive brother (and not as expensive either) is now just as capable and basically just as expensive. That's great, but what about the demographic this new model just left behind? What if they want it but just can't afford the monthly payments? Where do they go? What do they buy? Yes they can buy a used Camaro but that does absolutely nothing for GM's current or future income needs.

That market the new Camaro has just left behind is still there; GM just needs to take a hard look at what they're doing and the consequences, and decide if they want to keep the "affordable performance car" crowd or not. A Cruze, Malibu, or whatever else they've got isn't it; they need something that has the exciting looks of a Camaro but priced down into the "affordable performance" region again. It doesn't need to be and shouldn't be a Nurburgring champion; it just needs to push you back into your seat when you push down on the gas pedal. It needs to look cool and 'high performance' without necessarily being high performance or high cost.

Yer basic pony car; again.

What's happening right now with the 2016 doesn't bode well for future survivability. The price isn't going to go down in the future, it's only going to go up so if the excitement buyers aren't buying now at the current price point... what does that mean for the future? Was the 5th gen the last true Camaro? The last true "affordable performance" car from GM? Why is GM spending hundreds of millions developing a self-driving car? Who the hell's been asking for that?? Anybody??

C'mon GM... you have everything you need; do you have the vision and will to do it?

Doc,

I respect you opinion, and you have valid points.

But your Mazda 6 comparison is off. To make the comparison more valid, you must compare MSRP, to MSRP....as its only fair. yes, in the real world, discounts come into play, but the Camaro (as we are seeing) will get discounts as well.

I went to the Mazda website and loaded up a Mazda 6 Grand Touring with all the goodies I deemed as comparable to the completed loaded "40K" V6 Camaro you are talking about.

MSRP: $34,645

And that's for a car that doesn't handle as well, doesn't have quite the same sport feel, and frankily, is much slower. Its a sporty family sedan, versus an actual sports car.

The comparison isn't a fair one.

Folks...here is the deal:

1) Loaded up...yes these cars are expensive. Please, go over to the Ford site, and load out a Mustang GT or Ecoboost. Go load out a Challenger or a Charger. Go load out Nissan Z. See where you end up. That Camaro is not insanely higher, and likely cheaper in a few cases.

2) One pain point we've already beaten to a bloody pulp, is that perhaps these cars just simply come with more standard tech and performance than we are used to seeing (they are) driving up the price a few grand more than we'd like (it is).

That is what is creating the negative perception on price. That said, it is still an issue that could really hurt sales.

[KMPrenger]

Originally Posted by Doc

I don't know that what I said was extreme enough to be considered a "rant". I wasn't comparing a fully loaded all options V6 Camaro; the one I wanted was a 2LT with auto trans, convenience package and exhaust option. I wasn't buying it for high performance; my 5th gen fits that bill. I was looking for a sporty daily driver with some convenience options. The V6 Camaro was the only one available; the 4 cyl version wasn't and still isn't.

A base 1LT V6 with auto trans would still be over $31k which is about $10,000 more than the Mazda I bought. It would have more power but not get as good gas mileage. My commute is half an hour and all on city streets; nothing over 50 mph with most of it below 40 mph. More power is not something I could use; gas mileage is. If the Camaro had been $25k I probably would have gone for it, but I just couldn't see spending another $10k for the use I needed to buy it for. The Mazda 6 Sport I bought fit the bill perfectly. My tricked-out 2010 1SS Camaro is my fun car, but I can't drive it in the snow or in icy conditions.

I realize of course that my desires and needs aren't everybody's, but if the sales of the 6th gen don't perform like the 5th gen did, I think my assessment of the situation is probably pretty close to what the cause/issue will be.

Again, not targeting you, but the MSRP of your Mazda 6 Sport is $24,115 with an auto transmission as the only option. Not sure what options you got in your Mazda, but I'll just go with that base MSRP.

A compariable turbo 4 Camaro with 8 speed transmission is just over 28 grand. So a 4 thousand dollar difference for a higher performing car.

Its the same deal when I compared the loaded out Grand Touring model earlier to a loaded V6 Camaro. Roughly 4 thousand dollar difference in MSRP.

Not a big deal for someone that wants a 2 door sports car.

If someone wants just a "sporty" ride, then there are many more options out there.

By the way, base V6 with auto is under 30K...not over 31K. Just stating facts is all.

[FlightSoftware]

As one review I read said they're grateful Chevy still makes a Camaro, because they don't have to. Their other cars sell well enough.

I'd rather have a more expensive car with a better ... everything... than something "affordable" and cheap (5th gen). I was NOT a camaro guy until last month. I hated the 5th gen (sorry). I was all ready to buy either a used 'vette or another mustang until the ford dealer tried to rip me off. Spent a day looking around, and saw the '16 camaro. Holy shit. That's awesome. Two weeks later, I'm ordering with Becky.

I don't want to spend the $$ on a new corvette. If I felt like I needed the V8, it's nice to know you can get a new Camaro that looks good inside and out and has tons of power for <$50k. As it is, I can get a nicely loaded high quality very attractive sports car with 335hp and 5.2s 0-60 for <$40k. I'm happy.

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I'm fine with it costing a little more as long as I feel like the "little more" was worth it.

[Bongos2U]

If I were to buy a Camaro, here is what I would want...Comes out to a little more than 33K. I don't have a problem with this.


2016 Camaro 1LT
Price
$33,160

MSRP1 from $25,700
Destination Freight Charge $995

Options:
Blue Velvet Metallic $0
Jet Black, Cloth seat trim $0

20" 5-spoke, split, premium Gray-painted, machined-face, aluminum wheels
Requires available RS Package $0

RS Package $1,950

Heavy-Duty Cooling and Brake Package $485

3.6L V6 Direct Injection engine with Variable Valve Timing $1,495

8-speed automatic transmission $1,495

Dual-mode performance exhaust $895

Chevrolet MyLink®1 Radio with 7" diagonal color touch-screen $0

245/40R20, blackwall, all-season, run-flat tires $0

Black Front and Rear Bowtie Emblems $145

Options Total $6,465

Total MSRP $33,160
Price $33,160*

[FlightSoftware]

Yup. Very reasonable. The only reason I went 2LT was for the heated seats, basically. lol. (well, that and the blind spot assist stuff.)