[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by Rock36

IMHO Cadillac has an image problem not a performace problem, and this has been true for years. Performance numbers alone aren't going to steal many BMW customers, and the message I'm concerned Cadillac is broadcasting is, "BMW makes such an awesome car that we have to try to out 3 series a 3 series". This implicit focus on how good the BMW 3 series is a double-edge sword for Cadillac. It seems to also tell BMW owners and prospective BMW owners that they already have the car to beat, which is not true at all in my opinion.

Maybe I'm reading way too much into this, but that is the impression I get with all the ATS vs. 3-series talk. Again, I want to know what is compelling about this car vs. the segment not just the 3-series.

You're talking as if Cadillac put the whole thing together & decided that the only other car that should be present is the 3 series. Motor Trend did the comparo and wanted to see how the new ATS stacked up against the car that they felt was the best in segment (according to a recent multi-car comparison test they conducted before they had access to the ATS). If you've got a problem with the 3 series being protrayed in the video as the car to beat, your beef is with Motor Trend -not Cadillac.


GM did not focus solely on the 3 series when they did their benchmarking for the ATS. They bought 2 of every competitor & used those cars to determine where to set their targets for each aspect of the car (ride, handling, body stiffness, erogonomics, seating comfort, materials, fit and finish, etc). This is a standard practice at any major company, not unique to the ATS, GM, or even the auto industry. But the point is, GM brass didn't just grab a previous generation 3 series and say 'build us a better one of those'.

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

You're talking as if Cadillac put the whole thing together & decided that the only other car that should be present is the 3 series. Motor Trend did the comparo and wanted to see how the new ATS stacked up against the car that they felt was the best in segment (according to a recent multi-car comparison test they conducted before they had access to the ATS). If you've got a problem with the 3 series being protrayed in the video as the car to beat, your beef is with Motor Trend -not Cadillac.


GM did not focus solely on the 3 series when they did their benchmarking for the ATS. They bought 2 of every competitor & used those cars to determine where to set their targets for each aspect of the car (ride, handling, body stiffness, erogonomics, seating comfort, materials, fit and finish, etc). This is a standard practice at any major company, not unique to the ATS, GM, or even the auto industry. But the point is, GM brass didn't just grab a previous generation 3 series and say 'build us a better one of those'.

MT Average Annual Sales
Rating

#1 BMW 3 400,000
#2 Volvo S 60 60,000 (2011)
#3 Mercedes C Class 60,000
#4 Audi A4 294,000
#5 Lexus IS 20,000

BMW owns this market by volume and magazine tests. The ATS should come in 3rd by volume in the first year of global sales

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by lexlueger

Reading is fundamental, the title of the thread is "Did GM blow it??". Title was meant to incite discussion. .

So how about, is Motor Trend correct? or wow, GM nails it by being judged competitive with the venerable 3 Series? Those incite discussion as well as did GM blow it. The latter is far more negative relative to a pretty positive car.

Not sure what you mean by reading is fundamental..........maybe that was inciteful too?

[Rock36]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

MT Average Annual Sales
Rating

#1 BMW 3 400,000
#2 Volvo S 60 60,000 (2011)
#3 Mercedes C Class 60,000
#4 Audi A4 294,000
#5 Lexus IS 20,000

BMW owns this market by volume and magazine tests. The ATS should come in 3rd by volume in the first year of global sales

These figures seem to be a mix of global sales and US sales figures...

As of August 2012 the entire 3-series line sold 60,621 cars in the US, which is not on track to 400K. The Mercedes C-Class by comparison sold 43,053. Audi A4 has 25,195 total sales in the US YTD, Infinii G series another 42,375 cars, and that doesn't include Lexus, Acura, Lincoln etc. BMW does have the most sales, but BMW does not own the majority of the market. When you look at the month of August by itself the BMW 3-series is third. Full luxury sales in the link:

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2012/09...s-figures.html

Anyway I'm not talking about the entire global market, because globally, the BMW 3-series also exists a bit outside of the entry level luxury segment. Globally, there is a lot of elasticity in what a 3-series can have, from a 2.0L N/A 4 cylinder with cloth interior and no options to a fully loaded Cabrio M3. Here in Germany those 3-series prices range from 28,500 Euro to 79,800 Euro. While still a premium brand, that is a broad price range that can accommodate a lot of potential buyers with a broad range of income, and thus a lot of buyers. That also says nothing of the factory build capacity and market penetration that BMW has globally compared to Cadillac at this time. So 400K global annual sales for the 3 series has little to do with my point.

Besides how much performance or "ultimate driving experience" do you think a 2012 BMW 316i with ~136 PS or the 320i with ~186 PS here in Germany really has? Econo models like that are what moves all those global 3-series sales, those and the small displacement diesel models. Don't confuse my dissatisfaction with the 3-series comparisons with my opinion of the ATS itself.

[Rock36]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

You're talking as if Cadillac put the whole thing together & decided that the only other car that should be present is the 3 series. Motor Trend did the comparo and wanted to see how the new ATS stacked up against the car that they felt was the best in segment (according to a recent multi-car comparison test they conducted before they had access to the ATS). If you've got a problem with the 3 series being protrayed in the video as the car to beat, your beef is with Motor Trend -not Cadillac.


GM did not focus solely on the 3 series when they did their benchmarking for the ATS. They bought 2 of every competitor & used those cars to determine where to set their targets for each aspect of the car (ride, handling, body stiffness, erogonomics, seating comfort, materials, fit and finish, etc). This is a standard practice at any major company, not unique to the ATS, GM, or even the auto industry. But the point is, GM brass didn't just grab a previous generation 3 series and say 'build us a better one of those'.

No, I'm acting as if the extra (not exclusive) focus on the 3 series is the only portion of the ATS coverage I don't like. I also never implied that GM said to Cadillac "just build us a better one of those". I did say I was concerned that is the message being sent, and it isn't just Motortrend either, Motortrend is only the article that started this thread.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/tests/dr...3-cadillac-ats
http://jalopnik.com/5928279/cadillac...alopnik-review
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...838944226.html
http://motorspacenw.com/member/bloge...0&u=144&page=0
http://www.insideline.com/cadillac/a...full-test.html
http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews...s/viewall.html
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...t-drive-review

In each of those articles the 3-series is practically the first thing mentioned, though the Automobile magazine article did give fairly solid mention to other cars and so did Car and Driver.

Whether this approach is advocated or desired by Cadillac or GM, I can't say. What I can say is that I personally don't like the focus. Perhaps it will be the deciding factor for a large portion of future ATS buyers perhaps not, but it won't be the deciding factor for me.

If I buy an ATS (which I may when I return to the US in a couple years) its performance relative to a 3-series will not be a major consideration. I already know Cadillac makes cars that perform well, and have been doing so. It will likely be the result of a cost-benefit analysis between the CTS and ATS honestly. So all things considered I'm probably irrelevant to Cadillac, because I will probably be buying from them regardless.

Finally, it isn't widely reported that Cadillac bought two of each of the competition as you pointed out, and that is precisely the kinds of info I want to hear and see printed more often. Unfortunately, what usually is reported is that Cadillac bench-marked the E46 3-series, that is what gets the attention and that is what I'm not a fan of.

And to shamelessly quote myself from my original post (bolded portion for effect ):

Originally Posted by Rock36

In fact, I actually think there is a lot to the ATS that makes it stand on its own, and I would rather read about all that instead of hearing about how Cadillac built a 3 series fighter.

[shaffe]

I dont have a probelm with GM benchmarking the 3 series. it is the car to beat, so why not set your sights on it. Glad they looked at other cars as well.

I still think GM nailed the ATS. I cant wait to see one in person

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by Rock36

it isn't widely reported that Cadillac bought two of each of the competition as you pointed out, and that is precisely the kinds of info I want to hear and see printed more often. Unfortunately, what usually is reported is that Cadillac bench-marked the E46 3-series, that is what gets the attention and that is what I'm not a fan of.

And to shamelessly quote myself from my original post (bolded portion for effect ):

It wasn't widely reported because its nothing new or unique. Its just basic engineering. Everyone does it & nobody really gives it a second thought. But mention that you benchmarked the car that has been leading the segment for the last few decades? All of a sudden people will instantly know what to expect, and if they liked that car -and hear this new one is better, well it becomes at least worthy of consideration. And thats the battle GM has to win right now with the ATS, is getting people to consider buying it. Once they've established themselves as a legitimate entry in this segment, they can begin talking about what makes it unique and special.

[lexlueger]

C&D review.