[razorsedge]

Originally Posted by Blue Maro Demon

Ford GT doesnt count the car was limited production with only a little over 4,000 that were produced and the car hasnt been in production for over 4 years if its no longer in production it doesnt count.

I never heard of the 2013 GT500 getting an IRS thats the first I heard that. That sounds funny since I dont see Ford doing much other than adding power to the 13 GT500 since they are soooo close to the new 6th gen Mustang in 2014 I just dont see the point in putting that much effort in an outgoing generation Mustang. And the 7:35 ring times I will believe it when I see it thats all im going to say. Thats an absolutely ludicrous ring time for a car that has a solid rear axle although I will admit that the Mustangs have a bit of a weight advantage but still their suspension is outdated. That is Corvette territory those kinds of numbers and I just dont see it happening until I see an official ring video from Ford with that number like Chevy put up of the new ZL1 a Ford Fan saying it happend just doesnt hold much clout.

Really are you an automotive design engineer or something? Do you realize there are alot of modern race cars that still use live axle suspensions are faster and more reliable than IRS? All the smack talk you post on here you sound like sort of a bench racer wannabe. If the 7:35 times for the Shelby are legit it wouldn't be the first time a Mustang was in the same performance league as a vette. Go some where else with your Ford bashing so the rest of the automotive enthusiasts can enjoy reading the boards here.

[Blue Maro Demon]

Originally Posted by razorsedge

Really are you an automotive design engineer or something? Do you realize there are alot of modern race cars that still use live axle suspensions are faster and more reliable than IRS? All the smack talk you post on here you sound like sort of a bench racer wannabe. If the 7:35 times for the Shelby are legit it wouldn't be the first time a Mustang was in the same performance league as a vette. Go some where else with your Ford bashing so the rest of the automotive enthusiasts can enjoy reading the boards here.

I'm not bashing just telling the obvious just because somebody in Germany says so in so is faster doesnt mean its correct or true. Like I said im not believing what anybody says rumor wise about what the 13 GT500 runs at Nurburgring until there is an official statement from Ford on the time they run there. Just because someone claims to have seen something doesnt mean jack. I can claim I saw a new C7 Corvette today too but would anyone believe me? LOL As far as you go why dont you go to a Ford Mustang forum since your such a big Mustang fan.

[Blue Maro Demon]

Originally Posted by Grabber

Well, for the record, I'm more than just a Ford Fan. Unlike a lot of people, I am a car enthusiast, and if I could own multiple Cars, the Camaro, Vette, and other cars would be in my stable, and not just a Mustang.

Read this.

]This was all I could find for now.

I was there in June during a 10 day industry booking when "Red" was lapping the ring faster than the ZL1's September time. SVT has actually been working on the car since the Z28 hype in October of last year. 7:41 is fast however, it was a rolling start (same as Red but not like the CTS-V) and will never be an official run (same as Red). The suspension that underpins the 2013 GT500 is almost identical to that in which the Boss 302S uses and runs in SCCA and Grand Am and very similar to the Shelby GT350. The car will most likely use Corsa's but is unknown if Ford really wants to go with a 305.. If a 305 is used, I expect the GT500 (or SVT Cobra) to be back over here Sometime in March/April to lay down a REAL Ring time.

Here is what we seen in June, Ford tested this GT500 while Team Corvette ran the record ring run...


Quote:
Long time reader and first time poster. I am currently stationed in Kaiserslauthern, Germany and was informed on Tuesday that there was a new GT500 testing at Nurburgring. I went up on Wednesday and Thursday to check it out. There were quite a few club members there and they were clocking both cars throughout the week. You could not get near the vehicles (not that I would try) and no questions were answered. It rained Monday, Tuesday and some on Wednesday and was cool and clear the rest of the week (about 65-72). I could not hear a supercharger or a turbo but I was not very close to the actual track and exhaust was pretty decent (and tire noise). Club members here clocked the red GT500 around a best of 7:30 and the black one around 7:40. There were two passengers most of the time with the occasional driver only run. The cars would do 2-3 laps of 8 minute laps and then move to a 7:XX lap so it seems heat soak was being looked at as well. It was said that Karl Gieger was there personally but I don't know if anybody from the US has heard of him. The traffic was pretty low when I went up on Wednesday and Thursday and I was told that the it was that way pretty much all week. Both cars would do 2-3 laps, sometimes running together, sometimes one at a time and then they would disappear for 30 minutes. There were a series of 10 minute laps (which is slow) and as I said, multiple time keepers clocked the cars mid 7 minutes at their best under very good weather and traffic. This is all I know, I have iPhone video of some turns but it really sucks and the audio was crappy so I didn't keep them, the group I was in picked a location way too far from the track IMO. We were told that there would be photos and video online later this month so I didn't care about the video. I was surprised when I checked the internet late Thursday night and found it posted already.

Anyway, I thought the lap times would be interesting at least, I am trying to circulate this info as much as possible. I was also told that a local guy ran his Boss 302 LS at a 7:45-7:49 which is right on par with the BMW M3 GTS and the Audi R8 V10 but this, along with everything else I was told is all hearsay. I did however, confirm a 7:35 from the red GT500 and a 7:43 from the black car via a club members stop watch so... I can see a 7:30 and a 7:40 from these cars. There was speculation about the Red GT500 being a Nurburgring edition and the other being a future production GT500 SVTPP. There was speculation that maybe one was a manual and one was an auto and that one was a 2012 and the red one was a 2013.... either way, they were both very fast and ran most of the day for most of the week...

Hope this helps...
http://www.teamshelby.com/forums/ind...e/page__st__20 The video was posted a few days later... We did do some separate timing on a very special part of the track and found that "Red" was almost as fast as the ZR1 through that particular section (about 0.7 second behind the ZR1 and 1.4 seconds faster than the ZL1).

I am impressed that Chevrolet beat the C63 Black that was 4123lbs and produced 670hp and 740tq... however, that run was actually an official run from a stop (like the ZR1). If Ford is going into this race with a 7:35 and a 167mph top speed (the only lap I seen and the top speed was not confirmed by us) then it is possible that this snake is prepped and ready to go.... It does weigh 3850lbs, 600-620hp and has a large supercharger on top.... The ZL1 comes in at 7:41 with 170mph top speed for reference. Remember, the 2012 CTS-V had a top speed of 144mph on the straight at VIR, the 2012 GT500 only did 137 (142 on the record run), the GT500 still beat the CTS-V in every section of the track and ultimately won by a second on the same day



"Journalistic stupidity is like blood in the water; it draws sharks who are eager to profit as a result. The next Mako to strike was General Motors, which proceeded to set a couple of “production car” times in caged cars! Here’s a hint, friends: Rollcages make cars faster. Simply replacing the Autopower cage in our ’94 Neon ACR with a stiffer custom cage took 1.5 seconds off our lap time around Mid-O – equivalent to seven seconds on the ‘Ring. Why? The car twisted less and planted its tires better. Caged cars go faster. It’s as simple as that. But GM claimed it was for “safety”, and the Press As A Whole swallowed the explanation without comment. The final blow was the Viper ACR’s outrageous 7:22 laptime, which is, ironically, probably the most “legitimate” time of the bunch despite being the lowest. The problem is that the Viper ACR is only nominally a street car; it’s America’s answer to a street-legal Radical SR8."

LOL I have already seen this before from the Pill when he was here. Like I said I will believe it when I see it. Either way I dont see how this new GT500 will even be released to sell much seeing as the next gen Mustang is coming soon and MOST people won't pay $60,000 for a Mustang like I have been hearing rumors this new 600hp version will cost. Like it says in your statement that Boss 302 LS running a 7:45 to 7:49 is the stupidest thing I have EVER heard LOL. Was this Boss stock or not? If it was stock there is NO way it run that time Now if the Boss was moded I could see it but no way stock.

[Grabber]

Originally Posted by Blue Maro Demon

LOL I have already seen this before from the Pill when he was here. Like I said I will believe it when I see it. Either way I dont see how this new GT500 will even be released to sell much seeing as the next gen Mustang is coming soon and MOST people won't pay $60,000 for a Mustang like I have been hearing rumors this new 600hp version will cost. Like it says in your statement that Boss 302 LS running a 7:45 to 7:49 is the stupidest thing I have EVER heard LOL. Was this Boss stock or not? If it was stock there is NO way it run that time Now if the Boss was moded I could see it but no way stock.

Are you blind though?

The ZL1 was modded.

Tires + Cage = Faster Lap Times...

[Blue Maro Demon]

Originally Posted by razorsedge

Not a mustang fan, but I am an auto enthusiast. Own a 4th Gen z/28 and I don't plan on switching sides either. My z/28 has a live axle and is works rather well on strip as well as road courses. You don't need fancy technology a good working suspension. Sometimes simpler is better. Maybe I should start posting on some other boards so I don't have to read BS that tools like you post.

Tools? Do you own a drag car kid? LOL And I know all about how live rear axle works better at the strip thats why ALOT of Mustang owners didnt like the Mustang when it had an IRS.

[Blue Maro Demon]

Originally Posted by Grabber

Are you blind though?

The ZL1 was modded.

Tires + Cage = Faster Lap Times...

Yeah the ZL1 did have a cage but I thought they said the ZL1 was using factory tires not the Sport Cup tires used on the Vette. And like the person talking about the Boss 302 running that time as hearsay. A stock Boss 302 LS model is not going to run a 7:45 time its just not going to happen it would have to have been moded some to run a time like that. Anybody can run a time like that after they have moded their car well enough.

[Grabber]

Originally Posted by Blue Maro Demon

Yeah the ZL1 did have a cage but I thought they said the ZL1 was using factory tires not the Sport Cup tires used on the Vette. And like the person talking about the Boss 302 running that time as hearsay. A stock Boss 302 LS model is not going to run a 7:45 time its just not going to happen it would have to have been moded some to run a time like that. Anybody can run a time like that after they have moded their car well enough.

We don't know what was done to the GT500's and Boss that was run @ the ring, since Ford hasn't even released times.

We do know that a full 6 Point roll cage was used, but it is unclear as to the tires. In the 24 hour endurance video, GM was seen swapping from Goodyear F1 tires to a different tire that looked to be a Toyo R888 look alike or something.

Again, if a Cage can shave off 1.5 seconds per lap, that would be about 15-20 seconds off of the overall ring time.

A Cage makes a giant difference, I mean GIANT. My 03 Cobra had a 6 Point Roll Cage, and was a racecar minus the chute, ROFL.

On a serious note, I am more interested to see what the ZL1 would do on bone stock Street Tires, no cage, and it being an off the floor showroom model.

I'd say low 8 minute times.

[Blue Maro Demon]

And the ZL1 also had extra equipment that added more weight to the car other than just the cage. They wouldnt have put up the time if they didnt think the factory ZL1 would run a 7:41 cage or no cage.

[Grabber]

Originally Posted by Blue Maro Demon

And the ZL1 also had extra equipment that added more weight to the car other than just the cage. They wouldnt have put up the time if they didnt think the factory ZL1 would run a 7:41 cage or no cage.

You'd be surprised man.

A Cage will more than make up for 30lbs of Electronic equipment.

A Cage makes it so the car has zero roll, will take turns faster and at higher speeds, and allows the tires the grab better.

Also, regarding the Boss 302 Laguna Seca.

It has badass factory suspension, big brakes, weighs over 500lbs less than a ZL1, and also makes 444HP N/A.

Here are some specs.

http://media.ford.com/images/10031/2...s_LS_Specs.pdf

[ffrcobra_65]

guys......



Never attempt to argue with a fool. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

It is just amazing to read people talk about crap they know nothing about and when they get cornered, they retreat to their 1/4 mile education. You don't need much techonology to go straight for 10 seconds. Big engine, tires that hook, and driver with a heavy right foot and big nuts.

Magnetic this or that.....shoot, the new Boss Laguna Seca with its "inferior" solid axle is kicking your Magnetic suspension Ferraris A$$. I can't wait to own a ZL1 because I am a car enthusiast but I am not afraid to say that the new GT500 will spank its a$$....oh, and the "ring" time?? who cares about that crap? What regular Joe or anyone you know buys a car based on a "ring" time? Some cars that have good "ring" times don't do well in some tracks against cars that had bad or no "ring" times. Will that make me or stop me from owning and loving a Camaro, NO! I love cars period.

[Blue Maro Demon]

Originally Posted by Grabber

You'd be surprised man.

A Cage will more than make up for 30lbs of Electronic equipment.

A Cage makes it so the car has zero roll, will take turns faster and at higher speeds, and allows the tires the grab better.

Also, regarding the Boss 302 Laguna Seca.

It has badass factory suspension, big brakes, weighs over 500lbs less than a ZL1, and also makes 444HP N/A.

Here are some specs.

http://media.ford.com/images/10031/2...s_LS_Specs.pdf

Yeah I know all the info on the Boss 302 I knew it had 444hp. I also know that stock it wont run a ring time like that its common sense. I think once all the videos of the factory Camaro ZL1 people will be amazed of what else it is capable of. I'm sure it will run the ring time or a time very similar from the show room floor the last thing a manufacturer wants to do is false advertising. For the weight of the ZL1 it is a very very good car in acceleration and handling. I'm surprised that Ford is even going to make a 600hp current Gen GT500 since the 6th gen is coming soon I guess that just proves how much they want to keep the Mustang as a top pony car but it is their Corvette so it makes sense.

[tooslow]

Originally Posted by Blue Maro Demon

Thats an absolutely ludicrous ring time for a car that has a solid rear axle although I will admit that the Mustangs have a bit of a weight advantage but still their suspension is outdated. That is Corvette territory those kinds of numbers and I just dont see it happening until I see an official ring video from Ford with that number like Chevy put up of the new ZL1 a Ford Fan saying it happend just doesnt hold much clout.

Funny you use the Corvette as the reference, as it rides on leaf springs, equally "outdated" as the live rear axle wouldn't you agree?

Originally Posted by Blue Maro Demon

And the ZL1 also had extra equipment that added more weight to the car other than just the cage. They wouldnt have put up the time if they didnt think the factory ZL1 would run a 7:41 cage or no cage.

LOL, do you understand the concept of marketing a product? The long post earlier in this thread explained pretty well why all car companies would want to post up a 'Ring time.

Originally Posted by Blue Maro Demon

I'm surprised that Ford is even going to make a 600hp current Gen GT500 since the 6th gen is coming soon I guess that just proves how much they want to keep the Mustang as a top pony car but it is their Corvette so it makes sense.

Hmmmm....I believe the last time Ford put out a high performance Mustang before a major platform change we got the Terminator Cobras. Doing the same on the eve of another chassis change seems to be par for the course at Ford. Not sure why you find it so hard to believe?

[radz28]

The roll cage was not a mod', it is a safety-related addition to the car that GM does in every car that I can recall seeing pictures of. The ZETA II chassis is stiffer (as said by some of the biggest Sponsors in this Community) and doesn't need SFCs, so adding a cage is probably not going to change the dynamics of the car in any measurable way. Adding the weight of the cage and equipment are probably going to easily overcome any reduction of trim weight that was removed for the safety devices.

I would point out that to quote the same source for this "red" GT500 mule that posted on this sight is not proof enough, IMO. When you can find different sources with similar information, from someone who's not an admitted Mustang-lover, then I'll bite; that, and when Ford actually makes the announcement. That very well could be the next gen Mustang. I remember seeing C5 mules running around with C4 AND CAMARO panels on them, lol.

[radz28]

Originally Posted by Crowley

LOL .. your a tool if you think that any car maker hasn't gone through the same thing .. with all cars .. you have to pay to play ....

I don't see how they could legally do that though for the folks that have already bought the car ... doesn't make any sense!!

That is one thing I do like about the Zl1 ... they come out and show where they have beefed up the parts or add additional coolers etc ... the problem will be... once you get it on a track .. something breaks and you take it to the dealer .. will they back it up or claim abuse and your warranty goes by by ..

Crowley

It will be interesting to see how well ZL1 fares when it comes to track time and warranty claims. It sounds like they're going to be quite deliberate in documentatio for ZL1, given the comments in the dealer guides about tire temperatures, when to change gear oil, etc. As much advertising they are doing about the track-readiness of ZL1, and how even ZR1 has the same warranty as a Spark, I can't help but think they're going to stand behind it. What is concerning to me, regarding the Supervisor, is that mods' aside (I could completely understand why they are doing that), to lower the warranty just for buying the key option just screams foul to me. They praise that Coyote to be a race motor and this-and-that, but to automatically reduce the warranty (which - sounds to be less than ZL1 will be... unconfirmed though...) arbitrarily, just stinks. If you can't validate your motor, on your own tune, to the same standard as your regular tune, maybe the car's not as rugged as they'd like you to believe... That's a whole lot of rev'n for 50K miles... (obviously - no one is racing their car for 50K miles, lol).

Warranty is a tough deal. Ford's played their card - let's see what GM does...

Originally Posted by Grabber

Can't really say all Mustangs will get eaten up by the ZL1. Also, what ZL1 will cost $40,000, like that has a relevance?

Compare apples to apples, not apples to potatoes.

I found some info that the new 2013 GT500 with the 5.8L ran a 7:35 ring time, but it wasn't officially announced. Someone on a different site was there the day all of these cars were testing, and recorded the runs, etc.

It's completely fanboyish if you totally dismiss All Mustangs, and compare a near 100K Vette to a 40-60K Mustang/GT500.

It can be difficult to try to argue an apples-to-apples comparison like you've pointed out. However, there weren't too many cries when SS was compared to the GT500... I guess that's the nature of things. Additionally - when Ford, the fanboys, and press all scream about the Boss it's hard not to put it in the cross hairs. That's a better car than the GT500 in most performance considerations, so I think it's natural to make comparisons. Everyone knows that's what's going to happen in the media anyways. I'm sure the GT500 will be in the mix, too, however, you KNOW there's going to be some Boss talk in there.

Originally Posted by Grabber

Are you blind though?

The ZL1 was modded.

Tires + Cage = Faster Lap Times...

What is this about the tires I read about. It's my understanding that was a 100% spec' production-intent ZL1, except telemetry, and safety equipment (I already posted about headliner and trim removal). I'm curious where you think the Cup Tires are going on ZL1, because GM's said nothing about Cup Tires at all. Perhaps you can validate your claims with some images from those videos.