[ZED SLED]

Originally Posted by GreenZLE

Must have been the 2.4 then. Man it was SLOOOOWWWWWWW!

I had that in my 2011 Equinox AWD. You didn't dare pull out onto the highway if there was a car coming within a 1/4 mile. Traded that dog in 2015 for a Terrain 3.6L

[Devstrike]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Most of your points are in the past. Most EVs have a range better than my Buick LaCrosse. It had an 11 gallon tank. The newer EVs can charge 10 to 80% (for many batteries, 80% is the dirty secret on range as it takes a longer time to get from 80 to 100) in under 20 minutes and that is improving. And most EV owners today charge at home so for a lot of folks that is a non issue. They charge at home, at night with lower rates.

But this has been politicized beyond belief. For me it's always been a technology discussion. I've always said get rid of the $7,500 tax incentive and make them compete on merit alone. But we are several years past the cross over point when a BEV and ICE would cost about the same. I've lived with one. They are awesome. If the dealer wasn't such a dumb ass I'd have one now. Not saying I was ready to take the big road trip, but I know people that do regularly.

The biggest problem is it' sooooo different than what we have today. Gasoline (and diesel) are cheap, easy to transport and easily on demand. When is the last time you had to search and hope for a gas station? For me it was the CTF 2010 Camaro out in the middle of New Mexico when I thought a backroad, at night, would save about an hour of travel time. You've never had to plan a trip around where you stop (well some do around hotels). So people have to "get used to it". Which is why I've maintained the Camaro didn't sell well. You either were all in from the beginning orrr you had to "get used to" poor visibility, poor rear seat room and a crappy trunk.

Throw in the fact that people that wouldn't consider an EV yet anyway feel like they are being forced into something that doesn't work the way their current transportation does.

What I'm certain will happen though is a) people will recognize ICE has not runway left for development. To meet even current emission requirements is hugely expensive. OEMs are fighting for 10ths of an MPG. The 2.0T in my XT4 has a cool indexing cam shaft that got, rumor anyway, .25 mpg and cost $850 in piece cost. BEVs on the other hand are not even at the next level of battery tech yet. And there is a crap ton of money being spent to get MORE range, CHEAPER batteries and FASTER charging.

My prediction is it will be very hard in 10 years to make any kind of an argument against EVs. And I don't rule of the slim possibility that FCEVs stay relevant in this discussion. The only issue there is the cost of H is higher and right now the transportation of it is difficult.

Take the politics out and it's a fun engineering/technology discussion. It's just hard to do that.

1. I beg to differ on my most of my points being in the past. I spend a lot of my time browsing forums looking at data online and reading more than one source on EV information that is published. Now lets talk range with two vehicles in question. In the same year we bought our Camaro we bought our Subaru Legacy brand new and recently we went to SE Michigan for a wedding with it. The Gas light came on at 500-520 miles and it takes just 5 min to put 15 gallons of gas in it and keep going. We got it for a little under 30k. Even with that price range at today's inflation I don't see an EV near that. Honda has their new civic though which goes even farther than that on a 10 gallon tank and takes 5 min or less to fill up. Price for for the car, insurance etc on that Honda is far more affordable than any EV and more affordable than a Legacy. I am not against EVs but if I was after an economy car it would not be an EV it would be that Honda. For me personally time is everything and I don't want it wasted waiting for a car to charge. Now if they get the price down on an EV and the charge time down to where its the same as pretty much filling a tank with gas I will consider it. I seen this constantly said on my many forums from people who don't hate EVs but it just isn't there yet for them. I also don't hate EVs I don't have any where to charge it and just rather not pay a higher price on insurance, registration and deal with sitting in a random lot for a half hour or longer to charge it. Yes in my state owning an EV costs more than owning a Camaro.


2. I agree politics ruin everything and it is more than likely outside of what I mentioned above as to why EVs have a harder time in the US compared to other countries if not the biggest reason. I have no doubt in my mind that if the politicians did not do a mandate there would have been more EV buyers. The current society we live in do not like and won't get used to anything they rather complain or outrage on Social Media or elsewhere. As far as the Camaro goes I never had an issue with the visibility and I personally think its overblown. That being said it could be that I have towed in side jobs big decently heavy size trailers behind a HD pickup truck where all I had were my side mirrors or the opportunity driving much higher end cars with imo the same visibility. When I went on a test drive with my Camaro to now I have never had issues with visibility in the almost five years I have owned mine since new. Back space wise if you are only comparing the Big 3 the Challenger was the only one that had decent back seat space and that is barely and the Challenger also had imo the better trunk space. The Mustang and Camaro to me were the same for trunk and back seat and the Mustang is still around.



3. I personally think and this is based on how people here in the US as a consumer base with the political climate we have that Hybrids will be king in 10 years. Seeing how this new Honda Civic Hybrid has for an economy car good acceleration on top of great efficiency and seeing how people are reacting to it leans me in this direction. This includes plug in hybrids as well not just hybrids like the Civic that fill up with gas. As far as pure ICE goes it will probably not be as high but in the US Pickup trucks are a big seller and are the big 3 bread and butter so if you though this forum was bad when it came to EVs just go to any of the big three various truck forums. Ram CEO also said the Hemi returning to the 1500 was not out of the question recently. I don't want to go off topic though but EV sales will also be higher than they are today but I predict it will be Hybrids that will be the king in 10 years. There is also from what I understood, read and heard is there is room to grow with hybrids as well.

[olrocker]

I’m at Barrett-Jackson. Dodge has a new Charger EV on display with a Dodge product guy. He said there’s lots of demand to bring the Hemi back but there’s lots to work through.

My point is with the renewed demand for ICE, non-hybrid cars, and the elimination of the EV mandate, we may see the Camaro’s return. And not as an EV or hybrid.

[JT6Speed]

Originally Posted by olrocker

I’m at Barrett-Jackson. Dodge has a new Charger EV on display with a Dodge product guy. He said there’s lots of demand to bring the Hemi back but there’s lots to work through.

My point is with the renewed demand for ICE, non-hybrid cars, and the elimination of the EV mandate, we may see the Camaro’s return. And not as an EV or hybrid.

I'm just not convinced in any sort of R&D with regards to an ICE muscle car from GM. It felt like the 6th gen was almost a burden that they couldn't wait to sunset after the refresh in '19. Nothing new and exciting happened for years, and the send-off was mediocre at best. If I saw some enthusiasm and passion, maybe it'd be believable that we'll see a "true" 7th gen, and not a butchered SUV or electric car that makes V8 noises. It tells you something when they have to emulate the sound of a previous model...

The Corvette is their pride and joy now.

[90503]

Another v-6 fan here...

When it was announced that the Impala sedan would be discontinued I picked up a new 2017 Impala Premier.

They were the last Chevy sedan with a V-6, included the tried and true 6-speed automatic trans, full size interior and trunk dimensions (larger than the Cadillacs of the time), no cylinder de-activation, no start/stop "technology".

Plenty of power (no turbo required) and excellent gas mileage. Trouble free for over seven years now.
Too bad they felt it had to be discontinued. I think its a great car and glad I got one and at a good deal at the time.

Once emissions requirements, CAFE is reigned in, Carbon foot-print nonsense is eliminated, and gas prices are reduced back to reasonable, it would be nice to see the V-6 used again before gm and others throw away ICE production capability and technology. Saying ICE has reached its limits and is no longer viable, is only if the honorous and punitive mileage and emission requirements are bureaucratically kept unattainable.

[FarmerFran]

Originally Posted by 90503

Another v-6 fan here...

When it was announced that the Impala sedan would be discontinued I picked up a new 2017 Impala Premier.

They were the last Chevy sedan with a V-6, included the tried and true 6-speed automatic trans, full size interior and trunk dimensions (larger than the Cadillacs of the time), no cylinder de-activation, no start/stop "technology".

Plenty of power (no turbo required) and excellent gas mileage. Trouble free for over seven years now.
Too bad they felt it had to be discontinued. I think its a great car and glad I got one and at a good deal at the time.

Once emissions requirements, CAFE is reigned in, Carbon foot-print nonsense is eliminated, and gas prices are reduced back to reasonable, it would be nice to see the V-6 used again before gm and others throw away ICE production capability and technology. Saying ICE has reached its limits and is no longer viable, is only if the honorous and punitive mileage and emission requirements are bureaucratically kept unattainable.

My FiL had one. Got rearended or he would still have it.

I do not guess I need to tell you the SUV rules. Look at just about every MFG line up. Crazy.

[GreenZLE]

Originally Posted by 90503

Another v-6 fan here...

When it was announced that the Impala sedan would be discontinued I picked up a new 2017 Impala Premier.

They were the last Chevy sedan with a V-6, included the tried and true 6-speed automatic trans, full size interior and trunk dimensions (larger than the Cadillacs of the time), no cylinder de-activation, no start/stop "technology".

Plenty of power (no turbo required) and excellent gas mileage. Trouble free for over seven years now.
Too bad they felt it had to be discontinued. I think its a great car and glad I got one and at a good deal at the time.

Once emissions requirements, CAFE is reigned in, Carbon foot-print nonsense is eliminated, and gas prices are reduced back to reasonable, it would be nice to see the V-6 used again before gm and others throw away ICE production capability and technology. Saying ICE has reached its limits and is no longer viable, is only if the honorous and punitive mileage and emission requirements are bureaucratically kept unattainable.

Agreed with everything you said. My Impala was a 2017 as well and I'd have bought another one had they not been discontinued! Instead, I got the Equinox, because there was no other choice for me. The Impala's trunk was maybe the best part about it. We could take our family of 4 on vacation and have plenty of room for everyone's luggage!

I'm looking forward to EPA regs being rolled back, however, GM has a bad habit of being late to the party so I may buy another brand that takes advantage of rolled back regs.

[olrocker]

Talked to the Ford guy today about Mustang. Even though sales are down Ford has committed millions to future gasoline V8 and manual transmission development for it, partly due to the fact the folks at Ford are keenly aware of the ‘88 Probe/Mustang fiasco even though many of them weren’t even born yet.

[GreenZLE]

Originally Posted by olrocker

Talked to the Ford guy today about Mustang. Even though sales are down Ford has committed millions to future gasoline V8 and manual transmission development for it, partly due to the fact the folks at Ford are keenly aware of the ‘88 Probe/Mustang fiasco even though many of them weren’t even born yet.

Ford will be well positioned when the economy comes roaring back and people start buying things they want instead of just things they need.

[paradigm]

Originally Posted by olrocker

I’m at Barrett-Jackson. Dodge has a new Charger EV on display with a Dodge product guy. He said there’s lots of demand to bring the Hemi back but there’s lots to work through.

My point is with the renewed demand for ICE, non-hybrid cars, and the elimination of the EV mandate, we may see the Camaro’s return. And not as an EV or hybrid.

I really think if they can bring back a properly priced car with V8, RWD and hopefully a manual it will sell, but it needs to be marketed properly. They basically never marketed the 6th gen and only those who knew, knew.

Dodge's new charger is going to be priced too high, and with the EV setup I expect it to be a sales flop.

The mustang is selling poorly compared to prior years, not because the car is bad but because they priced it way too high without the competition around.

[paradigm]

Originally Posted by JT6Speed

I'm just not convinced in any sort of R&D with regards to an ICE muscle car from GM. It felt like the 6th gen was almost a burden that they couldn't wait to sunset after the refresh in '19. Nothing new and exciting happened for years, and the send-off was mediocre at best. If I saw some enthusiasm and passion, maybe it'd be believable that we'll see a "true" 7th gen, and not a butchered SUV or electric car that makes V8 noises. It tells you something when they have to emulate the sound of a previous model...

The Corvette is their pride and joy now.

Gone are the days when GM had a lot of exciting offerings from their different divisions. We are lucky just to have one from them (the Corvette) and thats it. The rest are chinese ripoff EV crossovers that I would never look at. I saw a new Buick coming down the road the other day, and at first glance I thought it was a Kia / Hyundai. What a joke.

[cobra30689]

Originally Posted by olrocker

partly due to the fact the folks at Ford are keenly aware of the ‘88 Probe/Mustang fiasco even though many of them weren’t even born yet.

I was a Fox body man (and worked for many Ford dealers) for many years prior to owning my 4th Gen, and I remember that fiasco well. It truly is a shame that the Camaro faithful could not make their voices heard in the same manner this time around. 2002 I could understand, 2024 not so much.

[tripowergto]

Originally Posted by paradigm

Gone are the days when GM had a lot of exciting offerings from their different divisions. We are lucky just to have one from them (the Corvette) and thats it.

Don't forget about the Caddy Blackwing's, which still offer a stick. C8 Corvette does not.

[FarmerFran]

Originally Posted by 90503

Another v-6 fan here...

When it was announced that the Impala sedan would be discontinued I picked up a new 2017 Impala Premier.

They were the last Chevy sedan with a V-6, included the tried and true 6-speed automatic trans, full size interior and trunk dimensions (larger than the Cadillacs of the time), no cylinder de-activation, no start/stop "technology".

Plenty of power (no turbo required) and excellent gas mileage. Trouble free for over seven years now.
Too bad they felt it had to be discontinued. I think its a great car and glad I got one and at a good deal at the time.

Once emissions requirements, CAFE is reigned in, Carbon foot-print nonsense is eliminated, and gas prices are reduced back to reasonable, it would be nice to see the V-6 used again before gm and others throw away ICE production capability and technology. Saying ICE has reached its limits and is no longer viable, is only if the honorous and punitive mileage and emission requirements are bureaucratically kept unattainable.

And to this point

It is also the reason I ended up in my 2025 Grand Cherokee. The 3.6 is tried and true, plenty of power, plenty of MPG. No turbos, no gismos, no plugs.

I tried to get a Blazer but at the time there was nothing I could get in a V6 4WD (AWD). they were all that damn turbo 4.

I know a few of you all here hate on me and that is ok.