[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by Bangkok_ZL1

Since I'm almost 60, I do remember. And like all cars, including the C-8 now. Word had been out amongst car lovers even before the motor shows in 1989 when the Prototype Viper hit the audience and the magazines. So when Dodge came out of nowhere and hit the general public of America with a base model exotic looking car with a 400 horse V-10 that sported serious lines and 275/335 tires. Yes, Chevy took note and got off their butts and started working. And that war started the best comeback for performance cars in the USA. Because up till then the Vettes only "competition" was from a Mustang that had a few hundred horses at the most and looked God awful with the worst body lines ever drawn on paper, a freakin AMC Pacer had better body lines (OK, maybe that one's a tie). And as GM tried to keep up with the Viper, and it was always GM trying to keep up with the viper IN THE POWER DEPARTMENT, performance of all cars got better and better. The car industry realized that power sells. Then Ford started to get their stuff together, with a GT coming out also. And as each kept trying to make their flagship car better, the general public kept getting better performance cars. Literally, I just bought a new car that has exactly twice the HP as when I was selling Toyota's Flagship Supra back in 93 (and that was considered a badass car back then), and almost 3 times the Hp as when I sold camaros in 95 (If my memory serves me correctly the 1LE packed camaro had 275hp). That's my perspective of how it all unfolded. When the Viper came out, the performance world from the manufacturers changed drastically. But Chrysler couldn't capitalize and follow through. They didn't evolutionize like the Vette, so they became like the dinosaurs, extinct. And look at the Vette now, poised to take on the exotics at 1/3rd the price.

By the way, I used to live in Boise. Absolutely love it there; America's best kept secret.

Boise is awesome, but don't tell anyone as we've grown enough! Actually I like growth if done right (and I'm not a native).

Anyway, yes, I agree that the Viper changed the game, forcing GM to adapt w/ the Corvette but GM was even slow with that. After the C4 ZR1 went out of production in 1995, GM didn't really have anything to compete with the Viper until the C5 Z06 in 2002. And even then it was still behind the 1997 GTS in terms of power, but then came along the 500 hp 2003 Viper. I'd say GM didn't really catch up until the 505 hp C6 Z06 and of course the 638 hp C6 ZR1.

The Pony cars lagged behind pretty badly in the hp dept., though, until the Terminator Cobras in 2003 w/ an underrated 390 hp. Before that it was the 320 hp Cobra, 325 hp Camaro SS and WS6 (there was a Firehawk Trans Am that made 335 hp, I believe). While the big dog 'Vette of the era (4th gen Z06) was up to 405 hp by 2002 (but several hundred pounds lighter than the Cobra), and of course the Viper (GTS) was 450 hp by 1997, and 500 hp by 2003. Obviously when the Camaro was out of production the GT500 started to get serious hp numbers (500 hp) a few years later.

In hindsight, I doubt we'd have 650 hp ZL1s, 760 hp GT500s and 717 to 797 hp Hellcats if there was no Viper to push the American power vacuum in the 90s and early 2000s.

[SFV1LE]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

Thanks for posting this. As a mechanical engineer, I really enjoy the technical details that Hotrod gets into with their articles. They also had a nice write-up on the development of the LT4: https://www.hotrod.com/articles/the-...e-z06s-lt4-v8/

There's a lot of carryover from the LT4 to the LT5 (obviously); for example: the heads, valves, and pistons (I'm pretty sure I read this in another article), are the same.

Has anyone found any articles about GM's LT4 torture testing? I think it was HotRod that had a nice article detailing what Ford did with the Coyote engines -- in a nutshell: the torture testing Ford put the Coyote engine through was brutal.

"the torture testing Ford put the Coyote engine through was brutal"

With the GT 350 Voodoo did they do the same? Very high numbers of failures and even worse record of oil consumption to the point where Ford changed owners manual to state 1 QT in 500 miles is normal. So 10 quarts added between 5000 mile oil changes is normal, 10 QTS! :-) They haven't redesigned the motor after finding these issues right? In recent memory, or ever, can't think of a motor with issues like this and no remedy--like 991 GT3 they should have replaced motors, or at least pistons/rings and bearings at dealer. And ppl still paying over MSRP for GT 350 5 years later. Oil consumption like that would make ownership a bummer.

[gtfoxy]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

Boise is awesome, but don't tell anyone as we've grown enough! Actually I like growth if done right (and I'm not a native).

Anyway, yes, I agree that the Viper changed the game, forcing GM to adapt w/ the Corvette but GM was even slow with that. After the C4 ZR1 went out of production in 1995, GM didn't really have anything to compete with the Viper until the C5 Z06 in 2002. And even then it was still behind the 1997 GTS in terms of power, but then came along the 500 hp 2003 Viper. I'd say GM didn't really catch up until the 505 hp C6 Z06 and of course the 638 hp C6 ZR1.

The Pony cars lagged behind pretty badly in the hp dept., though, until the Terminator Cobras in 2003 w/ an underrated 390 hp. Before that it was the 320 hp Cobra, 325 hp Camaro SS and WS6 (there was a Firehawk Trans Am that made 335 hp, I believe). While the big dog 'Vette of the era (4th gen Z06) was up to 405 hp by 2002 (but several hundred pounds lighter than the Cobra), and of course the Viper (GTS) was 450 hp by 1997, and 500 hp by 2003. Obviously when the Camaro was out of production the GT500 started to get serious hp numbers (500 hp) a few years later.

In hindsight, I doubt we'd have 650 hp ZL1s, 760 hp GT500s and 717 to 797 hp Hellcats if there was no Viper to push the American power vacuum in the 90s and early 2000s.

Possibly.

The viper was an incon, no doubt. In reality it was a take-off of the Shelby Cobra, in then-modern, or even post-modern for the time, with an exotic V10. A V10 that, IMO, actually ended up being its down fall. I remember a C&D/ R&T/ MT, or something like that, series on the Viper that went into all kinds of facets relating to cost of ownership. The engines were junk & had a lot of problems that were extremely expensive to fix & maintain.

The Corvette always had the protection of GM, for the most part, of being the flagship performance car. There were, however, vehicles that made it under the radar that would absolutely smoke it in acceleration. Those included the 86/87 Turbo Regals, the 89 GTA Turbo Trans Am & around the time of this Viper/Vette battle, the Syclone &Typhoon would eat both their lunches in the 1/4. It took the LS vette era to meet the milestone of straight line acceleration of those trucks.

In actuality, the LS evolution in general was the milestone of the performance race we see now. The Terminator aside, Ford was way behind with the Mod-motors. Dodge was not even in the market until much later. The D & F camps had to step up their game big time to compete with the New SBC.

Another side of that was your average gear head. We were slapping superchargers & turbos on them & making never before seen amounts of power, for cheap. Gear heads, whether hands-on or not, buy performance cars. In order to attract that crowd to buy new manufacturers had to step up to the plate & deliver with increasingly more powerful engines. Engines we still take farther than they do. The LT5 is simply that next step from GM in this segment. It’s still nothing that hasn’t been done by the aftermarket engine builders & tuners. It really excels in its further complexity.

In an introspective contemplation I am starting to conclude the TCM lock-out is a move by GM to quell that aftermarket surge in newer vehicles. By controlling the limit, they become the limit, to a point. Maybe I’m off base here, but if it gets worse, that will be the reality. Now whether or not it’s outside forces, ie .gov, behind the shadows is yet to be determined.

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by gtfoxy

Possibly.

The viper was an incon, no doubt. In reality it was a take-off of the Shelby Cobra, in then-modern, or even post-modern for the time, with an exotic V10. A V10 that, IMO, actually ended up being its down fall. I remember a C&D/ R&T/ MT, or something like that, series on the Viper that went into all kinds of facets relating to cost of ownership. The engines were junk & had a lot of problems that were extremely expensive to fix & maintain.

The Corvette always had the protection of GM, for the most part, of being the flagship performance car. There were, however, vehicles that made it under the radar that would absolutely smoke it in acceleration. Those included the 86/87 Turbo Regals, the 89 GTA Turbo Trans Am & around the time of this Viper/Vette battle, the Syclone &Typhoon would eat both their lunches in the 1/4. It took the LS vette era to meet the milestone of straight line acceleration of those trucks.

In actuality, the LS evolution in general was the milestone of the performance race we see now. The Terminator aside, Ford was way behind with the Mod-motors. Dodge was not even in the market until much later. The D & F camps had to step up their game big time to compete with the New SBC.

Another side of that was your average gear head. We were slapping superchargers & turbos on them & making never before seen amounts of power, for cheap. Gear heads, whether hands-on or not, buy performance cars. In order to attract that crowd to buy new manufacturers had to step up to the plate & deliver with increasingly more powerful engines. Engines we still take farther than they do. The LT5 is simply that next step from GM in this segment. It’s still nothing that hasn’t been done by the aftermarket engine builders & tuners. It really excels in its further complexity.

In an introspective contemplation I am starting to conclude the TCM lock-out is a move by GM to quell that aftermarket surge in newer vehicles. By controlling the limit, they become the limit, to a point. Maybe I’m off base here, but if it gets worse, that will be the reality. Now whether or not it’s outside forces, ie .gov, behind the shadows is yet to be determined.

In '91 and '92, the Syclone and Typhoon were running low 14s in the 1/4 mile at 93 mph (one C&D test I found for the Syclone was 14.1 @ 93 mph, and one test for the Typhoon was 14.3 @ 93 mph). That's not close to the new at the time '92 Viper which ran 13 flat at 110 mph with its 400 hp. And the LT1 '92 Vette was 13.7 @ 102 mph, easily surpassing those trucks. The '91 Corvette was at least a 1/2 second slower in the 1/4, though, with the L98 compared to the LT1 'Vette, meaning the AWD trucks would have been a close race, e.t. wise, but at a 5 mph lower trap speed (L98 Covette's trapped 98ish mph. Of course, during this time there was the ZR1 that also ran 13 flat at 112 mph.

The LS was certainly a big chapter in the evolution of the hp war, but mainly at the mid-level range minus the C6 Z06's 505 hp LS7 beast.

I don't think car guys supercharging their vehicles caused the hp war that manufacturers have been engaged in the last 25+ years. I don't think that would make a big enough ripple to cause manufacturers to have to react to it. I think it's just a one-upmanship mentality in order to sell more vehicles. And with modern technology, it's simply gotten incredible.

[gtfoxy]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

In '91 and '92, the Syclone and Typhoon were running low 14s in the 1/4 mile at 93 mph (one C&D test I found for the Syclone was 14.1 @ 93 mph, and one test for the Typhoon was 14.3 @ 93 mph). That's not close to the new at the time '92 Viper which ran 13 flat at 110 mph with its 400 hp. And the LT1 '92 Vette was 13.7 @ 102 mph, easily surpassing those trucks. The '91 Corvette was at least a 1/2 second slower in the 1/4, though, with the L98 compared to the LT1 'Vette, meaning the AWD trucks would have been a close race, e.t. wise, but at a 5 mph lower trap speed (L98 Covette's trapped 98ish mph. Of course, during this time there was the ZR1 that also ran 13 flat at 112 mph.

The LS was certainly a big chapter in the evolution of the hp war, but mainly at the mid-level range minus the C6 Z06's 505 hp LS7 beast.

I don't think car guys supercharging their vehicles caused the hp war that manufacturers have been engaged in the last 25+ years. I don't think that would make a big enough ripple to cause manufacturers to have to react to it. I think it's just a one-upmanship mentality in order to sell more vehicles. And with modern technology, it's simply gotten incredible.

A buddy of mine had a Syclone. We ran at Rock Falls Raceway a lot together in the mid-90’s. Stock it ran 13.4’s-13.6’s at right about 99mph. He turned the boost up to 21psi on 104 & ran 12.8’s @ 106.

Add: Yes I made him a cat delete pipe. That combined with a $20 air regulator from Menard & some vacuum tubing he was able to crank his boost up & run leaded fuel. So for less than $100 he was in the 12’s. We did some logs on 91 with an ODC scanner & it showed knock counts. He switched to 94 Sunoco & the knock went away, so that’s what he brought to the track. That’s when his truck woke up & ran hard.

At the time I had my 87 T-Type. We ran similar MPH but I was behind him in ET. It took air bags M&H street masters to come close to matching his 60’. I was running 21 psi on 114 with a pit bull chip & open exhaust & ran 13.2’s @ 108mph. That was about $500 invested at the time. Spend $500 on a ZR1 at that time & see if you could match that performance from a V8 vs a V6. I’ll wait... cause it’s not gunna happen.

After I did ported heads, 60mm Turbo, Duttweiler stage 1 cam & some other mods I was eating Vipers for lunch. I remember running one on Hwy 36 outside the cities to 140mph. He wouldn’t even look at me when I slowed back down to let him catch up.

[Bangkok_ZL1]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

Boise is awesome, but don't tell anyone as we've grown enough! Actually I like growth if done right (and I'm not a native).

Anyway, yes, I agree that the Viper changed the game, forcing GM to adapt w/ the Corvette but GM was even slow with that. After the C4 ZR1 went out of production in 1995, GM didn't really have anything to compete with the Viper until the C5 Z06 in 2002. And even then it was still behind the 1997 GTS in terms of power, but then came along the 500 hp 2003 Viper. I'd say GM didn't really catch up until the 505 hp C6 Z06 and of course the 638 hp C6 ZR1.

The Pony cars lagged behind pretty badly in the hp dept., though, until the Terminator Cobras in 2003 w/ an underrated 390 hp. Before that it was the 320 hp Cobra, 325 hp Camaro SS and WS6 (there was a Firehawk Trans Am that made 335 hp, I believe). While the big dog 'Vette of the era (4th gen Z06) was up to 405 hp by 2002 (but several hundred pounds lighter than the Cobra), and of course the Viper (GTS) was 450 hp by 1997, and 500 hp by 2003. Obviously when the Camaro was out of production the GT500 started to get serious hp numbers (500 hp) a few years later.

In hindsight, I doubt we'd have 650 hp ZL1s, 760 hp GT500s and 717 to 797 hp Hellcats if there was no Viper to push the American power vacuum in the 90s and early 2000s.

I went to Boise high back in 79. Just one year there but it was enough to know what a nice place it was. I lived across the street from CCCC, just about a mile up Bogus Basin. I'd love to take my car up there. That would be a nice challenge (if they havent changed the road too much).

As for the Chevy not trying so hard at the beginning of the viper age, it's because the viper was a beautiful looking POS that most thought probably wouldn't make it. But many people underestimated the lure of high HP though (including me). Yes, it had it in the engine department. But with no windows, no A/C, no real Top, no Door Handles, the body panels squeaked as you went through a turn. The early Viper was a joke. However, the 2nd Generation which I think was 96 served notice that the Viper wasn't joking around and was going to make a real run at Corvettes market share. And that's when it all really began. In hindsight, it's very unfortunate that Chrysler couldn't be more forward thinking. They innovate and then stop. When the ACR Viper was king of the Track just a decade ago, They should have took a real stab a supremacy going midengine. Even Audi did it. Why not make the most badass track machine V-12 flat plane crank N/A 800 horse circuit machine. Many would go for it. But as always, Chrysler didn't. They never finish well in the designing department. But at least they made Chevy push the Envelope. Because the only way to truly crush the ACR Viper (and any other front engine car) on a track was go mid engine. I bet after 4 or 5 years from now Chevy Corvette Z06's (and Z-51s) will be everywhere worldwide as people save 200k while still getting the same performance as most exotics.

[ZRacerLE]

This one just showed up in my news feed:
https://gmauthority.com/blog/2020/12...v8-lt5-engine/

[Z OH 6]

Originally Posted by Bangkok_ZL1

That HR article was nice to read.... But you know, I have to laugh when reading the history back in 1990. Cause HR certainly isn't telling the story about why Chevy got their act together. If there is one thing that Chrysler does well, it's innovate. There not good at making a good thing better usually, but they innovate. In 1990 chevy was truly scrambling trying to match the new upcoming Viper, which had already been in the motorshows for about a year, but hadn't hit the streets yet. A 400hp vehicle, no door handles, no top initially. just a bare bones, nice body lined V-10. I'm so glad Dodge did this because it made Chevy, who was just kicking back enjoying it's status, get off their butts and get to work. And it took a while as the viper certainly stayed ahead of the vette for a while. Yet during that time that "magnet" of trying to catch the Viper kept Chevy working to make their product better. But as almost always, Chrysler, who certainly had the edge through the 90's and into the 2000's couldn't keep their mojo going. And now look what's happened to the Vette, a reasonably priced, mid engine, true supercar capabilities coming that will be worldwide mass produced.... now all they need is an Italian interior decorator.... Can't wait to see them here in Thailand. We'll get a Chevy car club here, and maybe Chevy will return to Thailand. It's so sad that Chevy let Ford win Thailand, Mustangs everywhere. But I guess that's for another thread.....

Until then, here's a couple of pics of our C8 to hold you over.

[ZRacerLE]

Originally Posted by Z OH 6

Until then, here's a couple of pics of our C8 to hold you over.

HOT