[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Would love to see that head to head. That is the way the line up based on the type of equipment, so line them up and run them like that. I really hope they do it that way. And toss a RE in there as well for the ZL1, GT500 match up.

Now correct me if I am wrong though, when the H2H for the GT350 and ZL1 was announced, we had already seen lap times of the SS1Le correct? I do believe that was the basis for many people saying that the ZL1 would win performance wise bc the SS1LE was already so close, but I am going back on memory from a few years ago lol.



Yeah that has been the way they have done things in the past. I don't think that is the case this time around. Look at all the delays and the price of entry for the car and it doesn't seem like they cut any corners. All the models are pretty much fully loaded, all the models have adequate cooling. It's almost like they learned their lesson from past failures lol.





I would guess the competition is getting so expensive bc they are playing catch up. I mean dodge is trotting the car out there on an ancient platform doing whatever they can to stay relevant. Ford clearly didn't see GM setting their performance bar as high as it is so they are playing catch up for stuff that probably wasn't initially planned. So that is my guess. Also as much as some people love to bash the Camaro as being a parts bin car, this is also the major advantage it has. Sharing the platform huge cost reduction right there, sharing engines and transmissions more cost savings and oh yeah pulling from Cadillac engineers and Corvette power trains- those are pretty damn good places to borrow stuff from. While Mustang gets to share transmissions and basics of the 5.0 and 2.3 with other vehicles any high performance variant it is on its own which basically means expensive.

I never understood why that was a bad thing, maybe just something the other guys latched on to in an attempt to bash.

It is why we have world class performance at 10's of thousands cheaper than the competition.

[NW-99SS]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Yeah that has been the way they have done things in the past. I don't think that is the case this time around. Look at all the delays and the price of entry for the car and it doesn't seem like they cut any corners. All the models are pretty much fully loaded, all the models have adequate cooling. It's almost like they learned their lesson from past failures lol.





I would guess the competition is getting so expensive bc they are playing catch up. I mean dodge is trotting the car out there on an ancient platform doing whatever they can to stay relevant. Ford clearly didn't see GM setting their performance bar as high as it is so they are playing catch up for stuff that probably wasn't initially planned. So that is my guess. Also as much as some people love to bash the Camaro as being a parts bin car, this is also the major advantage it has. Sharing the platform huge cost reduction right there, sharing engines and transmissions more cost savings and oh yeah pulling from Cadillac engineers and Corvette power trains- those are pretty damn good places to borrow stuff from. While Mustang gets to share transmissions and basics of the 5.0 and 2.3 with other vehicles any high performance variant it is on its own which basically means expensive.

I think GM set the bar so high with the 6th gen ZL1 after the 5th gen launch that Ford was ready for with the immediate released of the Trinity GT500s shortly after.

Instead, Ford got caught this time not anticipating what the ZL1 would do.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by NW-99SS

I think GM set the bar so high with the 6th gen ZL1 after the 5th gen launch that Ford was ready for with the immediate released of the Trinity GT500s shortly after.

Instead, Ford got caught this time not anticipating what the ZL1 would do.

In other words, Ford guys have the ZL1 to thank for the GT500 being as good as it is(how good we will soon see).

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

I never understood why that was a bad thing, maybe just something the other guys latched on to in an attempt to bash.

It is why we have world class performance at 10's of thousands cheaper than the competition.

Pretty much is an attempt to bash but there are some times it makes sense

I sort of get it. Where I get it, is it does kind of limit what they can do with it engine wise. It basically just kind of limits them if they need/want to respond to something or just need to change it up they can't/won't/haven't. From the Camaro guys I see mad about that is the Z/28 fans because there is no engine out there for it right now, hence no Z/28. I am looking to the 7th gen camaro and will the hipo version have the rumored 5.5L FPC for the C8 Z06? that engine makes a lot of sense for a ME car. Not so much for a triple threat car like the ZL1 to me. Or will it have to have it's engine come from a derivative of the Blackwing since it seemingly has no home. That is an instance where being able to have unique engines isn't a bad thing.

But like you said, it's probably the primary reason the Camaro is so affordable compared to the competition. The LT4 is used in 3 vehicles. The Alpha chassis is used by 3 vehicles, the A10 trans was co developed with Ford and is used in multiple vehicles

Originally Posted by NW-99SS

I think GM set the bar so high with the 6th gen ZL1 after the 5th gen launch that Ford was ready for with the immediate released of the Trinity GT500s shortly after.

Instead, Ford got caught this time not anticipating what the ZL1 would do.

Ford got caught with their pants down, and tripped trying to pull them back up so far this gen.

Originally Posted by ST1LE

In other words, Ford guys have the ZL1 to thank for the GT500 being as good as it is(how good we will soon see).

This is why competition is so important. It's why I don't get the excitement some guys got when there was reports of Camaro's demise

[NW-99SS]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

In other words, Ford guys have the ZL1 to thank for the GT500 being as good as it is(how good we will soon see).

Goes both ways, but agreed. Strong competition makes for better/faster cars. Mustang vs Camaro rivalry is how we got to these amazing machines available today.

Originally Posted by shaffe

I sort of get it. Where I get it, is it does kind of limit what they can do with it engine wise. It basically just kind of limits them if they need/want to respond to something or just need to change it up they can't/won't/haven't. From the Camaro guys I see mad about that is the Z/28 fans because there is no engine out there for it right now, hence no Z/28. I am looking to the 7th gen camaro and will the hipo version have the rumored 5.5L FPC for the C8 Z06? Or will it have to have it's engine come from a derivative of the Blackwing since it seemingly has no home.

But like you said, it's probably the primary reason the Camaro is so affordable compared to the competition. The LT4 is used in 3 vehicles. The Alpha chassis is used by 3 vehicles, the A10 trans was co developed with Ford and is used in multiple vehicles



Ford got caught with their pants down, and tripped trying to pull them back up so far this gen.



This is why competition is so important. It's why I don't get the excitement some guys got when there was reports of Camaro's demise

Agreed, Ford did not anticipate the Alpha capabilities. Also spot on for the last statement. Dead competition isn't a sign of good things in the segment. Demise of any performance car shouldn't be celebrated unless your fanboy syndrome is equal to your insecurities.

[Laststandard]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

I never understood why that was a bad thing, maybe just something the other guys latched on to in an attempt to bash.

It is why we have world class performance at 10's of thousands cheaper than the competition.

I mentioned on one of those threads that hopefully Ford trickles down the chassis improvements on the GT350 / 500 to the base GT, because it's a shame to be locked out of the best handling mustangs unless you're willing to spend 60k+. Their reply was basically 'Ford charges more because they're worth more, gotta pay to play, lol crapmaro is cheap'.

[SlitherByU]

Originally Posted by Laststandard

I mentioned on one of those threads that hopefully Ford trickles down the chassis improvements on the GT350 / 500 to the base GT, because it's a shame to be locked out of the best handling mustangs unless you're willing to spend 60k+. Their reply was basically 'Ford charges more because they're worth more, gotta pay to play, lol crapmaro is cheap'.

I wouldn't bet on it. One thing Ford does well is protect the signature and functional pieces that make a GT350 and a GT500 exclusive to those models. Unlike Dodge. The 15-18 Hellcat hood is on everything now. Kinda cheapens an actual 15-18 Hellcat look now if you ask me. Making them look rather pedestrian. And add that the Demon Engine is massed produced in a Red Eye which adds insult to Demon owners.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by NW-99SS

Goes both ways, but agreed. Strong competition makes for better/faster cars. Mustang vs Camaro rivalry is how we got to these amazing machines available today.



Agreed, Ford did not anticipate the Alpha capabilities. Also spot on for the last statement. Dead competition isn't a sign of good things in the segment. Demise of any performance car shouldn't be celebrated unless your fanboy syndrome is equal to your insecurities.

THIS^^

Competition going away is only good when you can't compete. I think it is 100% their insecurities, they want the big bad Camaro to go away and stop kicking their butts.

We have choices and can buy whatever cars we want, so I hope they all stick around forever.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by SlitherByU

I wouldn't bet on it. One thing Ford does well is protect the signature and functional pieces that make a GT350 and a GT500 exclusive to those models. Unlike Dodge. The 15-18 Hellcat hood is on everything now. Kinda cheapens an actual 15-18 Hellcat look now if you ask me. Making them look rather pedestrian. And add that the Demon Engine is massed produced in a Red Eye which adds insult to Demon owners.

I agree, they have almost always followed this model, and it is why they can still command high prices for the Shelby cars. Some people don't care about exclusive and special though. They just want the best performance they can afford.

I think the poster you responded to was really talking about fixing the issues in the under-performing sub models. Things like giving the GT a Tremec manual transmission and retiring the tired old MT-82.

There isnt a manual Mustang cheaper than $65K worth buying, and that's a joke for a pony car!

[SlitherByU]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

THIS^^

Competition going away is only good when you can't compete. I think it is 100% their insecurities, they want the big bad Camaro to go away and stop kicking their butts.

We have choices and can buy whatever cars we want, so I hope they all stick around forever.

Dear God. The stroking off of eachother in here is on another level. LOL. Ford's modus operandi has always been a limited run on it's special cars. 2 year of the Boss. Two years of the Mach. Two years of the Trinity GT500. Ok, a couple extra years for the GT500 before that. The wait for the new 2020 GT500 was excruciating but It'll pay off in sales.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by SlitherByU

Dear God. The stroking off of eachother in here is on another level. LOL. Ford's modus operandi has always been a limited run on it's special cars. 2 year of the Boss. Two years of the Mach. Two years of the Trinity GT500. Ok, a couple extra years for the GT500 before that. The wait for the new 2020 GT500 was excruciating but It'll pay off in sales.

I have not idea what your point is here or why you quoted me LOL.

[SlitherByU]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

I agree, they have almost always followed this model, and it is why they can still command high prices for the Shelby cars. Some people don't care about exclusive and special though. They just want the best performance they can afford.

I think the poster you responded to was really talking about fixing the issues in the under-performing sub models. Things like giving the GT a Tremec manual transmission and retiring the tired old MT-82.

There isnt a manual Mustang cheaper than $65K worth buying, and that's a joke for a pony car!

For what the GT 5.0 is, to whom it is demographed for and it's price point, the offered manual and 10 spd auto fits. You want a higher more visceral experience, then you're gonna pay. Like most everything. Around the world cost more than a hand job...

[Laststandard]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

I think the poster you responded to was really talking about fixing the issues in the under-performing sub models. Things like giving the GT a Tremec manual transmission and retiring the tired old MT-82.

Yeah, mostly the suspension geometry issues that plague the base S550 chassis that Ford seems to have fixed with the GT350 / 500. Made more weird by the fact that Ford generally doesn't have an issue with leaving early adopters in the dust (15-17 GT...).

Of course, you can spin this as 'Ford is always innovating!' but it's more like 'Ford does the minimum necessary until they get stomped on!'

I was looking to spend 40k on a car I could bring to the track and not worry about. The 1LE is really the only game in that price range. I didn't want to spend 40k and then have to drop a couple grand more in suspension / cooling upgrades just to make it liveable on the track.

[SlitherByU]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

I have not idea what your point is here or why you quoted me LOL.

I could be mistaken I guess but it came off as the big bad camaro scares the Ford guys... Plus all the superiority complexes around here about the
ZLE and how it still reigns supreme. No denying, it's a great car. Not what I wanted, or I'd have one. That's all.