[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

Women prefer the mustang because it’s more attractive to them. To say that makes the mustang more “girly” is absurd. If more women are attracted to man, does that then make that man a “girly man”?

Yet the Mustang's performance is girly.

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

If the PP1 is the natural competitor, what does that make the PP2? What is the PP2’s natural competitor?

You are making the arguments about cars and what you think are their “natural” competition as they are fixed. The f-body Z28 matched up with the base model GT, and the SS matched up with the SVT cobra. Does that mean the Z28 still needs to match up with the base GT? Do you not hear how absurd your argument sounds?

You tell me what the PP2 is. The 1LE has been around all this time. So you're saying that up until 2018 the Mustang never had a package to match the 1LE?

And what is absurd is that you're bringing up 4th gen models. If your argument is correct then the SS shouldn't even be compared to the GT at all. I'm talking about the Mustang and the Camaro and the trim levels they have out right now. GT to the SS and GT PP to the SS 1LE. Again, just because the GT PP did horribly and Ford had to come up with the PP2 doesn't mean you can just go around saying the PP1 isn't the natural competitor. The PP2 was made because the PP1 fell short by a landslide and that is it's only reason for existence. If the PP1 had been closer in performance to the 1LE then do you really think they would have come up with the PP2?

[BlaqWhole]

How anyone can respect a car that needs an excuse every time it loses is beyond me. "It's not the natural competitor"..."the ZL1 is supercharged"..."they have better tires"..."Ford wasn't really trying to compete"..."Mustang guys don't care about performance"..."well, the Mustang sells more"..."we have more trunk space" (like anyone gives a crap)..."the Mustang sounds better" (who cares?)..."the GT350R is special". Good grief. Haw many damn excuses does the Mustang need to defend it's performance?

[SSfriendly]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Engineering omission (PP2) compared to engineering limitation (A8 Z06)

Do you see the difference?

Did the A8 not fail to offer adequate cooling for the A8 transmission on the Z06? It seems to me both omitted adequate cooling and therefore, both offer the same warning. I’d venture to say that an adequate cooler would enable the A8 Z06 to safely lap without limitation, would you agree?

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

But MotorTrend DID do a comparison between a non-1LE SS (a 2SS) against the M4. If you haven't watched it, spoiler alert: the 2SS did NOT have unwanted body motions and vague steering. In fact, they declared the 2SS the winner over the M4 (even though the numbers were very close) precisely because of the steering, chassis, and handling characteristics of the 2SS (and they liked the engine more in the 2SS as well).

So, I disagree with your point. You CAN put a car against a track variant, and not have that HUGE amount of body issues. Just put the regular SS against a 1LE. As you said, the PP1 and regular SS are close in terms of lap times, but the regular SS does not have the handling and steering issues of the PP1.

If you are going to have a performance pack and add suspension bits to make the handling better, do a better job. It should have quick turn-in, precision, and feedback in the steering. It should not have too much unwanted body movements in the transitions. The PP1 checks NONE of these boxes. Anytime that you initiate a turn in a car, then have to adjust the steering back in the other direction because of the body flopping around, it is a fail.

Until I see a review of the PP1 to SS, I’m chalking up the motortrend review to a sensationalized affair. It’s possible I’m wrong, yes…but motortrend love to overstate their opinions on many fronts.

The regular SS (non-1LE) doesn't do that. The steering has instant turn-in, extreme precision, and good feedback. That is one of the reasons the 1LE is soooo good. It starts with a great performing car to begin with, and then adds to it to take it up a notch.

Originally Posted by 1295/SS

Keep reaching. Girls like pretty flowers too that most men don't even notice. So, do i have to explain why that is as well? No offense meant if you like pretty flowers as well.

Yes, please do explain. If given a choice between a rose and a daisy, what would you choose? Both are flowers, does choosing a daisy make that particular flower more “girly”.

Again, it’s funny that some of you associate a women’s vehicle choice with a cars masculinity. It’s very telling.

[DevilsReject97]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

Funny, GM disagrees with you.

"Chevy product head Mark Reuss said yesterday that the automaker is considering a cheaper, stripped-out Camaro SS to better compete with the Mustang GT."

"I think we've got opportunities at the very low end of the Camaro range and some remix of some of the V8 options on it so we don't force people to buy all the options with a V8, just to get a V8," Reuss said. "The Mustang and some of the cars in the segment will have a lower base price and that's an opportunity for us probably."

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars...amaro-ss-base/

This has nothing to do with offering less standard hardware on the car, but more to do with including all the bells and whistles. My 1SS had the upgraded audio and the manual transmission. That was the end of the options. It still had the standard SS transmission, still had the standard Brembos, still had the standard LS3.... it just didn't have all the tech crap, the RS package, etc etc...

The problem with the new Camaro is that they are including all of that...and frankly, some people just don't want it. They just want a V8, some cloth seats, and a basic transmission.

Has zero to do with tires or anything of the like...in fact, I'd be shocked if they changed anything on the wheels at all, aside from maybe offering a cheaper wheel style.

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

Remind me again what GT stands for?

On most cars, it would be a grand touring car....however for the Mustang, it's an actual model name, not a "type". Same goes for the Dodge Charger R/T...which normally stands for Road and Track.

You don't get to pick and choose here....the Mustang GT is the base model V8. The Camaro SS is the base model V8. There is no disputing these facts. Just because your car choice was given a knife and came to a gun fight doesn't change that fact.

The 1LE is an upgrade "package" to the base SS, regardless of whether you have a 1SS or a 2SS. The PP1 and PP2 are both upgrade packages to the base GT. They would still be applicable to the 1LE in comparison as they do not add power, they only add suspension components and better handling equipment/aero.

The GT 350/R would be a natural competitor to the Z/28, if it were in production. The Z/28 has always been the type of car that the GT 350 is....but unfortunately GM doesn't have a competitor in that class.... so it's either the 1LE or the ZL1 you get to face....

Either way, it's not a fair comparison for the Mustang...because it's not going to win it...

[oldman]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

the PP1 is perfectly capable, just don’t lap it for hours on end. It’s going to perform similarly to your 1SS. Most people will never need the coolers that the 1SS comes with.

PLEASE, a performance pack that still can't be raced?? Too funny. This is just as bad as a Shelby with tech pack that can't be raced. Why can't Mustang fans understand this? This is like the battered spouse syndrome.

SEEK HELP

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

Of course you don’t see it that way, you have camaro blinders on.

Yep, can't let facts confuse us.

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

The 6th gen GT never really lined up with the 6th gen SS.

No truer words have ever been typed.

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

We all compared it because they both were the base levels available. The GT is more of a grand touring car and the SS has more of a track car flavor. We compared the PP1 to the 1LE because that’s all we had. Everyone knew the PP1 wasn’t really a track car, but a street car with a track car flavor (much like the SS). Now that Ford is actually making a PP2 that has suspension and tires that line up with the 1LE, we have cars that once again line up, not from an actual lap time standpoint but purely an option standpoint. Both have track oriented summer tires wider than their counterparts, and both have a much more track oriented suspension.

This is so twisted as to nonsensical; Every step from base to ZL1 1LE seems to be a blowout, but if one compares this to this, orders this in this color during a blue moon, with a prep tack and a professional driver, after some unknown mods it is almost as good. WHAT?

Ford you pay to play, and many times you still can't play. Nope I'm not a Camaro guy, when I retire, I will build a 1965 Mustang Fastback with a B0SS 302 Clevor style thru exhaust manifolds and a 7200 RPM cam and 4.88 out back, just because....

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

You have some severe masculinity issues my friend.

Must have hit a nerve.

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

No one truly thought the PP1 was a legit track car...

The second set of no truer words...

[SSfriendly]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Yet the Mustang's performance is girly.

You tell me what the PP2 is. The 1LE has been around all this time. So you're saying that up until 2018 the Mustang never had a package to match the 1LE?

I’m saying the only comparison we had was the 1LE and GTPP, just like right now…the only upper level comparison is between the GT350R and the ZL11LE. The comparison between the GT350R and ZL1 was valid, but they weren’t true competition….it’s all they had to compare at the time. The ZL11LE and GT350R aren’t really competitors.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

And what is absurd is that you're bringing up 4th gen models. If your argument is correct then the SS shouldn't even be compared to the GT at all. I'm talking about the Mustang and the Camaro and the trim levels they have out right now. GT to the SS and GT PP to the SS 1LE. Again, just because the GT PP did horribly and Ford had to come up with the PP2 doesn't mean you can just go around saying the PP1 isn't the natural competitor. The PP2 was made because the PP1 fell short by a landslide and that is it's only reason for existence. If the PP1 had been closer in performance to the 1LE then do you really think they would have come up with the PP2?

Let’s look the trim options. The base GT has a softer, more compliant suspension and all season tires. The SS comes with firmer, more track worth suspension and summer only tires. GM admits that they plan on making a stripped down SS to match up to the base GT...which you completely ignore. Did you even read the article?

And I rephrase the question….if the PP1 is the natural competitor as you state to the 1LE, where does that put the PP2?

So you honestly think that Ford engineered the PP1 already knowing the performance of the 1LE and failed. Then at the last second, engineered an entirely new suspension setup with different spring rates, advancetrack tune, different wheels, different tires, new suspension components etc. You are truly oblivious to the design cycle and lead times associated with designing and manufacturing parts….especially castings. It’s obvious that Ford had a game plan for the PP1 that would sell…and there were others within Ford who were not satisfied that it would not step up to the plate.

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

Did the A8 not fail to offer adequate cooling for the A8 transmission on the Z06? It seems to me both omitted adequate cooling and therefore, both offer the same warning. I’d venture to say that an adequate cooler would enable the A8 Z06 to safely lap without limitation, would you agree?





Yes, please do explain. If given a choice between a rose and a daisy, what would you choose? Both are flowers, does choosing a daisy make that particular flower more “girly”.

Again, it’s funny that some of you associate a women’s vehicle choice with a cars masculinity. It’s very telling.

I don't know how people can look at an object and assign it a "gender" in the first place. It's odd. However in my experience 99% of the women I date don't care so much about my car. Neither the Mustangs or the Camaros or Vette or whatever else I have.

As far as PP1 vs 1LE vs PP2. Previous to 18 I would say the PP was the equivalent to the 1LE. It got smoked. This year they were supposed to "fix" the very issues that we saw it still has. Excessive body roll, bad steering, etc. For them to seemingly have fixed nothing is a failure in my book. Thus far a 2SS on that track with Randy behind the wheel is almost 1 sec ahead of the GT PP1. I have serious doubts the PP2 can even make up that gap much less the 3 sec on the 1LE.

I think the GT350 is really hurting the GT PP1 and PP2. An easy fix would be take the 350 chassis and suspension and make it the PP1 and the R suspension the PP2. Ford for whatever reason is reluctant to do that.

[SpeedIsLife]

Originally Posted by DevilsReject97

On most cars, it would be a grand touring car....however for the Mustang, it's an actual model name, not a "type". Same goes for the Dodge Charger R/T...which normally stands for Road and Track.

I think you're confusing trim with model.

Ford Mustang-Model
GT aka Grand Touring-Trim

Chevrolet Camaro-Model
Super Sport-Trim

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Yet the Mustang's performance is girly.

You tell me what the PP2 is. The 1LE has been around all this time. So you're saying that up until 2018 the Mustang never had a package to match the 1LE?

And what is absurd is that you're bringing up 4th gen models. If your argument is correct then the SS shouldn't even be compared to the GT at all. I'm talking about the Mustang and the Camaro and the trim levels they have out right now. GT to the SS and GT PP to the SS 1LE. Again, just because the GT PP did horribly and Ford had to come up with the PP2 doesn't mean you can just go around saying the PP1 isn't the natural competitor. The PP2 was made because the PP1 fell short by a landslide and that is it's only reason for existence. If the PP1 had been closer in performance to the 1LE then do you really think they would have come up with the PP2?

No the PP1 was the competitor to the 1LE. It was just a very inferior package.

I will say now that the PP2 is a thing, the PP1 is no longer the competitor to the 1LE.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

Did the A8 not fail to offer adequate cooling for the A8 transmission on the Z06? It seems to me both omitted adequate cooling and therefore, both offer the same warning. I’d venture to say that an adequate cooler would enable the A8 Z06 to safely lap without limitation, would you agree?





Yes, please do explain. If given a choice between a rose and a daisy, what would you choose? Both are flowers, does choosing a daisy make that particular flower more “girly”.

Again, it’s funny that some of you associate a women’s vehicle choice with a cars masculinity. It’s very telling.

What is this "rose" and "daisy" you speak of? Is that yet another pacakge for the Mustang? The Mustang Rose edition? Mustang Daisy edition?

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

I’m saying the only comparison we had was the 1LE and GTPP, just like right now…the only upper level comparison is between the GT350R and the ZL11LE. The comparison between the GT350R and ZL1 was valid, but they weren’t true competition….it’s all they had to compare at the time. The ZL11LE and GT350R aren’t really competitors.



Let’s look the trim options. The base GT has a softer, more compliant suspension and all season tires. The SS comes with firmer, more track worth suspension and summer only tires. GM admits that they plan on making a stripped down SS to match up to the base GT...which you completely ignore. Did you even read the article?

And I rephrase the question….if the PP1 is the natural competitor as you state to the 1LE, where does that put the PP2?

So you honestly think that Ford engineered the PP1 already knowing the performance of the 1LE and failed. Then at the last second, engineered an entirely new suspension setup with different spring rates, advancetrack tune, different wheels, different tires, new suspension components etc. You are truly oblivious to the design cycle and lead times associated with designing and manufacturing parts….especially castings. It’s obvious that Ford had a game plan for the PP1 that would sell…and there were others within Ford who were not satisfied that it would not step up to the plate.

Seriously just out of curiosity since we are all talking about these cars and packages. I know you are not looking for a all out track car, as you said you would have bought a 1LE.

Are you eyeing the PP2, just waiting to see how it is first? I thought an '18 would be in my garage by now too, but went a somewhat unexpected route since the MT-82 was not replaced with a Tremec.

Just curious what you're looking for in your next Pony Car purchase. Lot's of options for whatever checks people's boxes these days from roomy Dodge's, Sporty AF Camaros, and quite a few new package/upgrades to the '18 GT to try out too. I'm no fan of car manufacturer's.....QUITE the opposite actually. I love cars, hate the BS involved though.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

Remind me again what GT stands for?

From wiki:

The design, both "inside and out, should be geared toward complete control by the driver."
Its "chassis and suspension provide suitable handling and roadholding on all routes" during travels.

But Ford in this instance considers it the V8 engine,

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

I think we've got opportunities at the very low end of the Camaro range and some remix of some of the V8 options on it so we don't force people to buy all the options with a V8, just to get a V8," Reuss said. "The Mustang and some of the cars in the segment will have a lower base price and that's an opportunity for us probably."

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars...amaro-ss-base/

None of us really knows what this means. For me it means a drag pack option for the V8 Camaro and a reasonably priced Z/28, with better performance than the last Z/28 but not as tracked focused, as to my mind the ZL1 1le has it all wrapped up.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by DevilsReject97

This has nothing to do with offering less standard hardware on the car, but more to do with including all the bells and whistles. My 1SS had the upgraded audio and the manual transmission. That was the end of the options. It still had the standard SS transmission, still had the standard Brembos, still had the standard LS3.... it just didn't have all the tech crap, the RS package, etc etc...

The problem with the new Camaro is that they are including all of that...and frankly, some people just don't want it. They just want a V8, some cloth seats, and a basic transmission.

Has zero to do with tires or anything of the like...in fact, I'd be shocked if they changed anything on the wheels at all, aside from maybe offering a cheaper wheel style.




On most cars, it would be a grand touring car....however for the Mustang, it's an actual model name, not a "type". Same goes for the Dodge Charger R/T...which normally stands for Road and Track.

You don't get to pick and choose here....the Mustang GT is the base model V8. The Camaro SS is the base model V8. There is no disputing these facts. Just because your car choice was given a knife and came to a gun fight doesn't change that fact.

The 1LE is an upgrade "package" to the base SS, regardless of whether you have a 1SS or a 2SS. The PP1 and PP2 are both upgrade packages to the base GT. They would still be applicable to the 1LE in comparison as they do not add power, they only add suspension components and better handling equipment/aero.

The GT 350/R would be a natural competitor to the Z/28, if it were in production. The Z/28 has always been the type of car that the GT 350 is....but unfortunately GM doesn't have a competitor in that class.... so it's either the 1LE or the ZL1 you get to face....

Either way, it's not a fair comparison for the Mustang...because it's not going to win it...

Mic drop award.

Originally Posted by shaffe

No the PP1 was the competitor to the 1LE. It was just a very inferior package.

I will say now that the PP2 is a thing, the PP1 is no longer the competitor to the 1LE.

I will agree. But I still think that just because the PP1 has proven to be inferior does not mean it isn't the competitor. The PP2 is more capable and can put up more of a fight. But that still doesn't mean it is the actual natural competitor. It's like if a 10 year old loses a fight to another 10 year old so he gets his 12 year old brother to fight for him. The PP got outclasses so they needed a PP2 to step in. It doesn't change the fact that the PP is the actual competitor. It just means the PP needed the PP2 to fight for it.

[1295/SS]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

Yes, please do explain. If given a choice between a rose and a daisy, what would you choose? Both are flowers, does choosing a daisy make that particular flower more “girly”.

Again, it’s funny that some of you associate a women’s vehicle choice with a cars masculinity. It’s very telling.

I figured it would be over your head. Enjoy your mustang.