[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

A good friend in the performance cars sector once told me:

"Ford builds engines, GM builds cars."

And if you really pay attention, you see it in almost every circumstance.

And yet...this is also why Ford sells more Mustangs...the buying public-at-large wants a cheap V8, and they don't realize how horrible the chassis/handling is in those models, because they've never driven one of the better ones.

Because the difference in dynamics doesn't really come into play when you driving home from the grocery store.

GM dropped the ball with the gun slit windows of the 6th gen. Sure, it looks fantastic, but it makes the car much more difficult to live with. Also, the packaging on the Alpha isn't great. The Mustang is a much more livable daily driver.

The Mustang has dominated in sales since the beginning. Clearly, Ford understands what people want in the car and builds that car.

[F1FTY]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

A good friend in the performance cars sector once told me:

"Ford builds engines, GM builds cars."

And if you really pay attention, you see it in almost every circumstance.

And yet...this is also why Ford sells more Mustangs...the buying public-at-large wants a cheap V8, and they don't realize how horrible the chassis/handling is in those models, because they've never driven one of the better ones.

I get the point he was making and you can see how going back to the fox body days GM has produced a better car, but my counter to that engine part is how widely used the Chevy small block V8 has been used over the last half century in racing.

When other OEMs stuff a Chevy motor into their race cars (Tanner Foust's Passat for example), you're doing something better than some others.

[JamesNoBrakes]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

Because the difference in dynamics doesn't really come into play when you driving home from the grocery store.

Then there's no reason for anything other than a Toyota Camry.

[JamesNoBrakes]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

were the 2 cars ever run same day, same driver?


ok so we agree that S550 is not "bad" as the people who dont know what a chassis is by definition keep proclaiming. that was what I was asking.

you may dislike or not understand Fords approach in its packaging and thats fine...I dont either in some respects.

A term should be used here, called "preponderance of evidence". GM has said they targeted the GT350 with the SS 1LE. They said (in not as many words) that it was faster with their testing. They gave the car to many people to test. Every meaningful test done where the GT350 had posted a time, the SS 1LE beat, even matching the R on a few tracks, but I would agree a preponderance of evidence doesn't exist with the R, it's by all measures an even more track focused animal. GM wasn't reaching for the GT350R with the ZL1-1LE, they were going for GT3s, 488 GTBs, and the likes. Ford isn't stupid, they know this, they wont give the car to a test where they know it's going to be taken down by a much cheaper or faster car. The only reasonable conclusion is the Alpha chassis is significantly better, capable of higher performance at a given price point.

[F1FTY]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

I asked about the chassis. not the tires, suspension, steering programming. The Gt350 proves what the S550 chassis is capable of and that shows it every bit as capable as alpha given similar tires, suspension, and steering.

You're right, the GT350 does prove the capability of the S550 chassis. Except it also costs a lot more than the Camaro SS 1LE. Why is that?

[FastCarFanBoy]

the Mustang was also 150lbs heavier than the SS according to the MT H2Hs and was .82 slower. That is the singular biggest advantage the SS has... not the 4 piston rear brakes or the 11 coolers standard. That's not an excuse as the Mustang needs to lose weight somehow going forward.

both are great cars and are as close as you can get performance wise.

[FastCarFanBoy]

Originally Posted by F1FTY

You're right, the GT350 does prove the capability of the S550 chassis. Except it also costs a lot more than the Camaro SS 1LE. Why is that?

because people will pay more for a Shelby?

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

Because the difference in dynamics doesn't really come into play when you driving home from the grocery store.

GM dropped the ball with the gun slit windows of the 6th gen. Sure, it looks fantastic, but it makes the car much more difficult to live with. Also, the packaging on the Alpha isn't great. The Mustang is a much more livable daily driver.

The Mustang has dominated in sales since the beginning. Clearly, Ford understands what people want in the car and builds that car.

Eh - I don't buy that window thing as solidly as others. Of course it's a decision-making factor, like most anything. But it wasn't an issue on the 5th gen, and I just refuse to believe suddenly it's become a deal-breaker in the market....I think the bigger factor is price and options packaging, like you mentioned.

Nevertheless, I think you hit the reason Ford ignores this part of the car with that first statement...I'll bet that's their logic verbatim. Camaro Team seemed to be far more interested in building a sports car than a grocery getter.

Originally Posted by F1FTY

I get the point he was making and you can see how going back to the fox body days GM has produced a better car, but my counter to that engine part is how widely used the Chevy small block V8 has been used over the last half century in racing.

When other OEMs stuff a Chevy motor into their race cars (Tanner Foust's Passat for example), you're doing something better than some others.

Of courses - I agree completely. This same friend of mine described Chevy engines are "smart", and Ford engines as "dumb" at the time...commenting on the protection controls. I, too, believe Chevy engines are better.

The statement was just made to describe how GM seems to approach the entire package (for better or worse), whereas Ford typically focuses on the powertrain as the priority. Ecoboost, Flat Plane Crank...lots of money in marketing powertrain at Ford...

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

A term should be used here, called "preponderance of evidence". GM has said they targeted the GT350 with the SS 1LE. They said (in not as many words) that it was faster with their testing. They gave the car to many people to test. Every meaningful test done where the GT350 had posted a time, the SS 1LE beat, even matching the R on a few tracks, but I would agree a preponderance of evidence doesn't exist with the R, it's by all measures an even more track focused animal. GM wasn't reaching for the GT350R with the ZL1-1LE, they were going for GT3s, 488 GTBs, and the likes. Ford isn't stupid, they know this, they wont give the car to a test where they know it's going to be taken down by a much cheaper or faster car. The only reasonable conclusion is the Alpha chassis is significantly better, capable of higher performance at a given price point.

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

the Mustang was also 150lbs heavier than the SS according to the MT H2Hs and was .82 slower. That is the singular biggest advantage the SS has... not the 4 piston rear brakes or the 11 coolers standard. That's not an excuse as the Mustang needs to lose weight somehow going forward.

both are great cars and are as close as you can get performance wise.

You have a point there for sure. But remember the SS is wearing run flat GYs which by everyone's account who has switched to MPSS, are clearly inferior. So it's not solely weight advantage either.

Like I said earlier. I don't think the S550 is inferior so to speak, but it can't compete at the same price point as the alpha in terms of track performance.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

because people will pay more for a Shelby?

People also ingest Tide detergent pods.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

The Mustang has dominated in sales since the beginning. Clearly, Ford understands what people want in the car and builds that car.

The Mustang sells more because it has always been cheaper.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

alot of praise and bashing going on about chassis when nobody has any actual data to back up those claims.

S550 chassis is garbage because its less what than alpha? and please include hard data in support.

What hard data do you have to suggest it was the tires? Here is some proof. When the car feels like it is unstable and like you're sitting on top of a stack of phone books on a water bed, that is indicative of the chassis. The fact that Mustang people keep talking about how comfortable the Mustang is, that is indicative of the suspension as well as the chassis. The fact that the SS beat the GT by well over 3 seconds is indicative of a better chassis. The fact that the SS 1LE can match or beat the non-R GT350 despite having less hp and truck engine with COPD is indicative of a better overall package, not just better tires. Now is some company going to go to GM and Ford, get a chassis of each car and then test them both? No. But is there enough evidence in the performance of both cars to tell us all we need to know? Of course.

And let me ask you yet again, if it was just a matter of tires, why did they go to all these lengths to build a car that could compete when they could have just thrown a better tire on it?

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

This is where you're completely wrong. Ford knew what the 1LE ran. They chose to not compete with it on the PP1. They didn't fail, they are targeting a different audience. In other-words, they didn't care about beating the 1LE. That obviously pissed off some engineers, hence the reason they went ahead with the PP2.

As for tires overall, Ford is playing the game differently. Tires are expensive, and Ford knows a majority don't care about having expensive summer tires on their base GT package. Sure, it sucks for those that want a wider/better tire...but for those that truly care there is always the PP1.

These aren't failures, these are marketing decisions. As it stands, Ford offers (in V8 form) the GT, PP1, PP2, GT350, GT350R. They will soon offer the Bullitt as well as the GT500. That's a hell of a lineup if you ask me.

This is where you are lying. Ford was not targeting a different audience. They were trying to beat the SS and the SS 1LE. They failed. And now they have the PP2 coming out because they are trying again. This isn't a marketing game. It is a performance war. Ford is trying to compete and they are losing. Horribly. Your constant ridiculous excuses just show how bad the performance is.

Ford just upped the price, upped the HP and tq, and sent GTs to every popular well known tuner/racer/shop they could find. These guys bought the GT and immediately took them to the track and used every track related app/mode it came with to bust off the best time they could get. They then threw DRs, tunes, track packs, blowers, nitrous, etc on these cars and spent weeks bragging on social media and advertising on their websites and snapping driveshafts all in efforts to chip away at the numbers and showcase the performance of this car. And you sat here making bold claims about the GT and GT PP1 all based on performance. The GT got it's ass whooped despite all the fanfare and hoopla and claims of 11 sec quarter mile times and now all of a sudden you reply back with marketing bullshit? And the best excuse you have is that now all of a sudden Ford was targeting a different audience? The only audience they were targeting was the performance world. If they didn't care about the performance then they would have saved the money from the performance upgrades, left it as a high 12 sed to low 13 sec car, spent a little bread on the cosmetics, and called it a day. But they didn't because they are trying to keep up with the Camaro.

[SSfriendly]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

This is where you are lying. Ford was not targeting a different audience. They were trying to beat the SS and the SS 1LE. They failed. And now they have the PP2 coming out because they are trying again. This isn't a marketing game. It is a performance war. Ford is trying to compete and they are losing. Horribly. Your constant ridiculous excuses just show how bad the performance is.

Ford just upped the price, upped the HP and tq, and sent GTs to every popular well known tuner/racer/shop they could find. These guys bought the GT and immediately took them to the track and used every track related app/mode it came with to bust off the best time they could get. They then threw DRs, tunes, track packs, blowers, nitrous, etc on these cars and spent weeks bragging on social media and advertising on their websites and snapping driveshafts all in efforts to chip away at the numbers and showcase the performance of this car. And you sat here making bold claims about the GT and GT PP1 all based on performance. The GT got it's ass whooped despite all the fanfare and hoopla and claims of 11 sec quarter mile times and now all of a sudden you reply back with marketing bullshit? And the best excuse you have is that now all of a sudden Ford was targeting a different audience? The only audience they were targeting was the performance world. If they didn't care about the performance then they would have saved the money from the performance upgrades, left it as a high 12 sed to low 13 sec car, spent a little bread on the cosmetics, and called it a day. But they didn't because they are trying to keep up with the Camaro.

Haha, man you sound like your ass is chapped...and totally naive. You really are delusional.

Ford produces a base GT with narrow all season tires NOT to compete with the SS, but because they are cheaper and they know a large percentage of buyers do not want more expensive, summer only tires as these are daily drivers across all parts of the country. Ford knows the SS has a tire advantage, and they don't care...and for some reason that eats you up.

Likewise, they produce the PP1 not to compete with the 1LE, but to give buyers something that is a little more track ready, with summer tires and a few more track oriented goodies without making an all out track performer. Once again, Ford already knew how the 1LE performed...and if they wanted to produce a car that competed with it, they would have. And again, for whatever reason this eats you up.

Lastly, the PP2 is produced with a completed upgraded and tuned suspension with track ready tires. This is absolutely Fords attempt to match the 1LE. This is blatantly obvious...how anyone here or in any other forum can argue otherwise is delusional. Once again, it is claimed the PP2 is a good 3.5 seconds faster than the PP1 around Grattan raceway. This should make it very close in performance to the 1LE.

Will it beat it, I really don't care...as I will never own either. But for anyone to argue that the PP1 was made to compete with the 1LE is out of their mind.