[mjk3888]

Sometimes forums are a solid cure for the mondays. I log on and go to check out the last page of the latest Camaro and Mustang comparison thread and first post I read is about how the Viper engine was a supercar engine put in a truck and not vice versa. HAHAHAHAHA!!!!

[ParisTNDude]

It appears to me that performance doesn't matter to Ford Motor Company since better than average performance or lesser, they still sell tons of Mustangs...always have and always will. Guys who buy Mustangs are "Ford" guys and performance or cost doesn't matter, they will still buy Ford.

I am impressed with any bone stock Mustang that runs under 12 seconds whether in the hands of car magazine professionals or the average owner; at the best track or the worst. I'm just glad we have competition that continues to improve the breed.

Unfortunately, when Mustangs are faster, it usually takes GM forever to make up the difference. If the A10 made that much difference in the Mustang, it will make a commensurate difference in the Camaro.

Oh, my 2016 2SS ran a 1.777 60 foot time bone stock. See the fast list.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by mjk3888

Sometimes forums are a solid cure for the mondays. I log on and go to check out the last page of the latest Camaro and Mustang comparison thread and first post I read is about how the Viper engine was a supercar engine put in a truck and not vice versa. HAHAHAHAHA!!!!

These guys make dumb statements and then continue on and on trying to defend what they said. And that leads to them making even dumber statements like the Viper V10, LT1, and Hellcat engines are all truck engines.

Originally Posted by ParisTNDude

It appears to me that performance doesn't matter to Ford Motor Company since better than average performance or lesser, they still sell tons of Mustangs...always have and always will. Guys who buy Mustangs are "Ford" guys and performance or cost doesn't matter, they will still buy Ford.

I am impressed with any bone stock Mustang that runs under 12 seconds whether in the hands of car magazine professionals or the average owner; at the best track or the worst. I'm just glad we have competition that continues to improve the breed.

Unfortunately, when Mustangs are faster, it usually takes GM forever to make up the difference. If the A10 made that much difference in the Mustang, it will make a commensurate difference in the Camaro.

Oh, my 2016 2SS ran a 1.777 60 foot time bone stock. See the fast list.

LOL, forever? Ok, the only time the GT was actually faster than any V8 Camaro was from 2013 and 2014 and even then it was a driver's race. And that was due to the Mustang weighing less (solid axle). 2015 the GT gained weight from going to IRS and even the HP bump it got still saw it become slower. They were dead even and that was with the Camaro being exactly the same except for cosmetic changes. So how is that "forever"? Camaro was faster in 2010. They were tied in 2011 and 2012. 2013 and 2014 the GT was faster but still a driver's race. 2015 tied. 2016 and 2017 Camaro was faster. 2018 Camaro is still faster even after the GT getting significant increases. 2 out of the past 9 MYs sure does not sound like forever to me.

[SpeedIsLife]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

And that leads to them making even dumber statements like the Viper V10, LT1, and Hellcat engines are all truck engines.

I believe the statement on the LT1 was that it had a truck-like powerband, which it does.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

I believe the statement on the LT1 was that it had a truck-like powerband, which it does.

So they designed an engine with a "truck-like powerband" and then threw it into the Corvette and the Camaro SS? Come on dude...

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

I believe the statement on the LT1 was that it had a truck-like powerband, which it does.

And what makes it a truck-like powerband? Pretty sure 4600RPM peak TQ is not how truck engines are tuned. The lower the better is the rule in truck engines, hence the popularity of diesels with peak TQ occurring under 2000RPM. Even with gas truck tuning, the difference is still the same with GM/Ford variants. GM variants making peak TQ 500RPM lower, and Ford 400RPM lower than their respective Camaro/Mustang variants. So from a TQ band perspective, the LT1 and Coyote are just as different in power delivery than their truck variants. It is only the actual peak TQ numbers that are different. And that is due to displacement as we all know.

[SpeedIsLife]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

So they designed an engine with a "truck-like powerband" and then threw it into the Corvette and the Camaro SS? Come on dude...

Yes, that's exactly what they did. The LT1 is not a high-er RPM motor like the LS7 was, or the Coyote. It builds great torque down low, yet for all intents and purposes is done making real power by about 6,000 RPM.

What you find with more "athletic" powerbands, as it's been called, is a later onset of torque and a peak closer to 5,000 RPM and HP that continues to build past 6,500. Even the LT1 in the GT4.R has been rebuilt for higher RPM power, which likely sacrifices lower RPM torque for an expanded powerband.

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

Yes, that's exactly what they did. The LT1 is not a high-er RPM motor like the LS7 was, or the Coyote. It builds great torque down low, yet for all intents and purposes is done making real power by about 6,000 RPM.

What you find with more "athletic" powerbands, as it's been called, is a later onset of torque and a peak closer to 5,000 RPM and HP that continues to build past 6,500. Even the LT1 in the GT4.R has been rebuilt for higher RPM power, which likely sacrifices lower RPM torque for an expanded powerband.

So an LT1 is "truck-like" since it's peak TQ comes on 500RPM higher than the truck version, but the Coyote is not, even though it makes peak TQ at the same RPM as the LT1 and only 400RPM higher than it's truck version.

But the Coyote is more "athletic" since it makes peak power only 500-600RPM higher than the LT1?

So which is it, 500RPM of power is the difference between a truck engine or an athletic engine? It can't be both. Either the Coyote is a more athletic truck engine or the LT1 is a truckish athletic engine?

Personally I don't subscribe to either "inaccurate" generalizations. The Coyote needs more RPM to make the HP of the LT1. The LT1 needs more displacement to make that HP. Two ways to reach the same goal, both with their own positives and negatives. Like you said, you move the RPMs up and you lose power down low. But that doesn't expand your powerband, you just moved where the "meat" of it is. It's always a give and take, hence why Ford geared the auto up significantly to catch the SS with A8 to make up for the lack of TQ.

[FastCarFanBoy]

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

I believe the statement on the LT1 was that it had a truck-like powerband, which it does.

the viper engine and hellcat even more so. Blaq knows it , he just likes to argue. The SRT-10 had an 8000lb towing capacity, but it wasnt meant to tow. The Trackhawk will tow over 7000lbs.

If the Hellcat and viper engines were high winding small displacement n/a engines they would have never been put in the Ram or the Jeep, they were put in those vehicles because they deliver power the way a truck needs it.

there were no LS7 powered Silverados and don't wait for the Explorer with the Voodoo to come out.

[BlaqWhole]

I never thought I'd see the day that people would argue that an engine in a supercar and a 707 hp Muscle Car are truck engines.

Ok so Dodge's "truck" engine was the most powerful production engine ever. And their 2006 V10 supercar "truck" engine was the most powerful NA engine ever. And they both powered cars that were faster than any Mustang at the time and are still faster than any street legal/street-able Mustang Ford has put out since either of them hit the streets...which one was way back in 2006. And the LT1 in the Vette is a "truck" engine yet it is faster than any street legal/street-able Mustang Ford has out. And the LT1 in the SS, also a "truck" engine, yet it beats the Mustang GT and is on the heels of the GT350. And I assume the LT4 is also a "truck" engine...yet there is no street legal/street-able Mustang in existence that can beat it in any performance metric. So all these "truck" engines with "COPD" above 6500 RPMs are straight up kicking the shit outta Ford's "athletic" engines even after then gave it a serious revamp and new A10 trans. That says a lot about just how shitty the Mustang is. Their "athletic" engines can't even beat the competition's "truck" engines. Maybe they should start building truck engines and then they'll have a chance of being faster.

[FastCarFanBoy]

If its in a truck and that truck is hauling a boat....that engine has attributes that compliment a truck. you can stamp "Supercar" on the valve covers , wont change the physics.

[metros11]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

I guarantee if the PP2 keeps up or beats the 1LE, owners here are going to pull the tire card like gangbusters.

That card has already been laid down.

Originally Posted by Chadicus

Keeps up for how long? 1 lap? Maybe 2 in December because it has no cooling? A car designed in secret during off duty time beating a 1LE is laughable. If you think 305 Cup 2s a 26 pounds of downforce spoiler and "police" brakes is all the GT needs to keep up with the 1LE then you guys are drunk off unicorn piss.

My guess is going to be that the suspension is also tuned to GT350TP specs. Considering that the latter is now outgoing, it's quite possible that the PP2 will be in line with that car's performance as a 'replacement'. I still think you're right, but we shall see.

Originally Posted by seanblurr

Luckily, we live in a time where Chevy and Ford are making awesome cars. Also, just because Motortrend says something, doesn't really mean it's objectively true.

Don't forget Dodge, they build cool cars in their own right as well.

With that said, good point about arbitrary reviews. But when it's not only MotorTrend, but a slew of other publications that sing the praises, you stand up and listen. It's THE reason I'm in a Camaro right now.

Originally Posted by ParisTNDude

It appears to me that performance doesn't matter to Ford Motor Company since better than average performance or lesser, they still sell tons of Mustangs...always have and always will. Guys who buy Mustangs are "Ford" guys and performance or cost doesn't matter, they will still buy Ford.

So what about 2010 through 2012 when the Camaro outsold the Mustang? Bow tie fans will buy the Camaro, Blue Oval fans will buy the Mustang, enthusiasts with no affiliation will buy the better performer, and the general public will buy the better looking car... IMO. That's really why the Mustang is outselling the Camaro these days.

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

I believe the statement on the LT1 was that it had a truck-like powerband, which it does.

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

Yes, that's exactly what they did. The LT1 is not a high-er RPM motor like the LS7 was, or the Coyote. It builds great torque down low, yet for all intents and purposes is done making real power by about 6,000 RPM.

LT1 and LS7 dyno curves are almost identical in terms of torque and HP delivery. The main difference is that the 7.0 displacement is obviously making more power and has a higher redline due to compression ratio differences and better internals. But torque starts taking a dive at around 5,000 rpm on the LS7, compared to 4700 on the LT1, very similar. Same with HP, 6400 rpm for LS7, 6000 rpms for LT1. If the LT1 is a truck motor, so is the LS7.

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

What you find with more "athletic" powerbands, as it's been called, is a later onset of torque and a peak closer to 5,000 RPM and HP that continues to build past 6,500.

What we find in a more 'athletic' power bands, like the Coyote, as you suggested... is that torque peaks at 4,600 rpm, and then dives from there. Nice try.



Bottom line, both are great motors from two different philosophies in design, with their own advantages and drawbacks.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

If its in a truck and that truck is hauling a boat....that engine has attributes that compliment a truck. you can stamp "Supercar" on the valve covers , wont change the physics.

More magical Mustang logic. In the real world, the world outside of Mustang LALA land, only a real idiot would actually believe that.

[GuywithL86]

I own an l86 sierra and a 2011 coyote, and have rented a camaro ss for a week

Camaro absolutely has a truck powerband, it’s the one thing I don’t like about it (everything else is absolutely amazing)

You can study dyno charts all day long, if you drive an lt1 and a coyote back to back, you will be wondering what the hell happened to the power of the lt1 up top (well and the power down low with the coyote)

Coyote revs out like two k20 honda motors welded together. My mustang is a complete pile of shit of a car, but that motor is incredible. Sorry guys, coyote is the better sports car motor.

The camaro does do well with the lt1 though. It gets major points for being able to put the power down. If my mustang received an lt1 swap it would just spin and be impossible to launch.

Fun fact that is crazy, my 5500lb truck bone stock with a tune will take out my coyote 5.0 in most 0-60 races (coyote would need a great launch which is not easy on the street.) That’s saying something about the l86 (or lt1 whatever you want to call it)

0-60 run of my truck, stock with tune
https://youtu.be/eVBzuxiH2c4