[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Capricio

That's being more than a bit dismissive, don't you think? I think the ICE crowd has provided some compelling arguments about marginal environment impacts, high prices, low consumer demand, impacts to power rates/grid/generation, limited range, comparatively slow charge times, battery degradation, insufficient charging access for long distance travel, near horizon tech leading to possible rapid depreciation looming, dependence on foreign interests for rare earth elements, poor performance in cold temperatures, etc etc.



and yeah... we *really* don't like having government mandates and subsidies overriding consumer demands to manipulate the marketplace. This *is* being forced upon us, albeit not all at once.



...but okay, "VROOM VROOM", whatever.

Just speaking on the stuff in bold:
Marginal environmental impacts: On one hand there’s the studies that talk about the environmental damage done by mining. Mostly factual, but some are a bit over-stated. There’s also studies that show that the environmental impact of producing EVs is marginally more than the environmental impact of producing ICE vehicles and that this margin is quickly offset when taking into account the lifetime emissions due to daily use of ICE vs EV.

High Prices: Definitely true at the beginning since automakers opted to produce large luxury vehicles and load them with options. Vehicles coming to market in ‘22 and onward are targeted towards the mainstream of the market. As the prices of batteries come down, so are the prices of vehicles. The EV I just bought costs LESS than the Camaro I bought more than 6 years ago. And it costs $3,000 more than the average new vehicle sold in the US in 2023.

Low Consumer Demand: Most surveys of interest in purchasing EVs and intent to purchase EVs (two very different questions) show that they have pretty much leveled out (around 80% for INTEREST, around mid 60s for INTENT) and showed some single digit decline in 2023. So it has declined from a high number to a slightly less high number.

Impacts to power rates/grid/generation: There are scenarios that could challenge the grid. Most involve practically everyone in an area owning an EV and trying to charge them all at the same time. Highly unlikely. Power companies that I have spoken with see generation as actually of less concern than transmission. And they’re working on that. Could still be an issue if EV population rises faster than currently projected. As far as rates, the percentage of power drawn by an EV is a fraction of the total energy drawn in the typical household. In my case it’s been right around 22% of my total electric bill. That’s looking at my bills from 2012 until February of this year when our Volt met an untimely demise. Less than $40 a month on an average bill of $182. It’s easy for me to split out because the car charger is on. Separate circuit with a separate meter.

Limited Range: Most EVs coming to market now have battery range of 300+ miles from a full charge.

Comparatively slow charge rates: This is something that continues to improve at a very fast rate. When I rented a Model Y in Atlanta a few weeks ago I charged it while I went shopping at a mall. Didn’t need to, but just wanted to get a feel for how long it would take. It went from 55% to 90% (Hertz limits to 90% charge) in less than half an hour. Cost me $11.24. It was done charging before I was done shopping. When I plugged in, the app told me it was charging at the rate of 207 miles of range added per hour.

Battery degradation: In the US, batteries have to be warranted to maintain 80% useful capacity over 8 years, 100,000 miles. Parallel to that, Tesla examined the batteries in Model S and Model X that had over 200,000 miles on them. The batteries showed 10 - 12% degradation. Since this was an older Model S, it didn’t even have benefit of the latest battery technology. https://www.motortrend.com/news/tesl...lth-over-time/

Insufficient access to charging for long trips: Probably the biggest single lingering issue at this time. The move by most major automakers to adopt the Tesla charging standard has immediately improved this, as the Tesla SuperCharger and Destination Charger networks provide immediate cross country access to charging. Still, more have to be added to support the expected growth of EVs between now and 2030. BP is investing $100M to add Tesla chargers at their gas stations.

Near horizon tech leading to rapid value depreciation: Could be an issue, but it will be manufacturer dependent. Tesla has been continuously changing their battery technology with absolutely no notice to current owners. Or really anybody, for that matter. I happened to be able to see disassembled 2020 and 2023 Model Ys side by side. The differences in the battery content is amazing. But the 2023 battery pack drops right into a 2020. GM has stated that their Ultium battery packs will support cells with different design generations and chemistries operating in the same pack. In other words, you can replace individual modules and even cells, and therefore not have to replace an entire battery pack. For other functionality, automakers are going to Over the Air (OTA) vehicle software and firmware updates for both ICE and EV. Tesla has been doing OTA since day one.

Dependence on foreign nations for rare earth minerals:EVs are more susceptible to this than ICE vehicles, but ICE vehicles are also susceptible to this. As are cell phones, music speakers, refrigerators, microwaves, et cetera et cetera. It’s a bigger problem than EVs, but EVs are the most visible presentation of the problem.

Poor performance in cold temperatures: Without a doubt. So are ICE vehicles. But there are differences in how this is addressed. With an ICE you can easily find a nearby gas station. With a BEV most owners will already be plugging the vehicle in every night. So arguably for my newest EV I go from having 318 miles of available range to having [guessing] 220 miles of available range. If I’m driving 45 miles total that day, does it really matter? Maybe I drive 80…150. It won’t matter in the long run UNLESS I’m driving more than the full range of the vehicle on any particular day. If that was something that happened often in my life, I’d probably not buy an EV. Or I’d do what I’ll probably be doing with this one. If we need to make long trips we’ll just take another car. Or rent something. That situation is likely to occur at most once a year.