[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

I don't like them mostly because they have a cult following that has led to a holier-than-though image rivaled only by the Prius, a shoddy business case, and innumerable quality issues that nobody talks about...

That said - they're another domestic company, that's a plus. And they've done a great deal for the development and evolution of the electric car. Back when the Volt was first envisioned, Bob Lutz (then GM's chief of design) was quoted as saying; "If an upstart like Tesla can do it, so can we!"

This ^ Some of Tesla's followers are worse than the people that worship Apple.

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

With all due respect...you're awful getting defensive about this...

Please read back on some of my posts...I don't *hate* Tesla. I see them for what they are...a small automaker making some big news, but small sales. And their balance sheet is terrifying. They have made some incredible strides in EV development. But they haven't been the only ones to do so...nor were they the first.

I do challenge your statement that they build EVs "that everybody can use"...because they started business producing the roadster...an extremely niche car that cost $100,000. Their next model was the S...another $100,000 car. with any options...and then the X, an $80,000 vehicle. While they function like a car should (most of the time)...I wouldn't praise them for building the everyman's EV. The Nissan Leaf and Volt made it to market years ago as $~40k-$50k EVs. Even the EV1, the industry's first attempt at a modern electric car, started with a price equivalent to $55k today. No, it didn't succeed in the marketplace...but we're talking about affordable EVs...until Model 3....Tesla wasn't it.

Then there's the Model III...which is not the *first* affordable EV as we know it; the Chevy Bolt beat them to the punch...and they can't seem to handle the stresses of true volume mass production. So sure, it's not news and we all know that, yes - but that's a BIG deal.

The difference between the subsidies and tax benefits companies like GM and Ford get vs Tesla is the scale....GM and Ford are GIANT companies...even if they got the same $$ amount as Tesla has, it amounts to a fraction of their operating costs. Tesla, however, requires these to stay in business. They have since the beginning, but they're not a startup anymore...it's not smart business. And to take deposits from people, promising them a car in 12-18 months, or longer in the case of the roadster and truck...just to fund their hemorrhaging business...only delays the inevitable...because what will fund the production of those, even more expensive vehicles? If this were GM, Ford, or Chrysler, there would be hoards of people shouting "let them die, they don't know how to do business".....

In that same time table...GM will be shifting nearly a quarter of it's total volume production to all-electric vehicles of many different shapes and sizes. Including at least one that is 100% autonomous with not even a steering wheel, meant for Lyft-style transportation fleets. I believe, in the long-run, Tesla will be a flash in the pan. Impressive, influential...but not nearly as successful and world-shaking as Elon Musk dreams about. Which is ironic...because his initial business model was to simply produce parts and components for other manufacturer's EVs, never full cars...but none of them were interested.

Again, I don't hate Tesla...and some of the things they have brought to market are pretty cool. But I feel like my thoughts on this are very level-headed and rational.

Also agree. Tesla needs to really start delivering on some of their promises, the rate they burn through cash is insane. What I think Tesla really nailed with the Model S and the Model 3 is the look. They don't look like a Leaf, they don't look like a Bolt. They don't look like a Prius. All those econo cars just kind of have that boring look to them. The Tesla cars, they look like cars, they look like they have some soul to them. They just need to get their business side running a lot smoother.